Can Christians Present A Unified Message?

So, when it comes to presenting a unified witness, how can we respond to scientism?

I think it would be a good approach to point out the weaknesses of these beliefs in a situation like this. For instance, science cannot provide guidance about right and wrong. Another approach could be to talk about the things that faith provides that science cannot, for example, eternal life. What do you think?

It seems to me that contemporary western culture is increasingly influenced by the doctrine of scientism. Scientism does not merely assert that empirical science is a generally reliable source of information about the natural world, a claim that is uncontroversial. Rather, scientism claims that a particular approach to science—the materialistic science which has become dominant since the Enlightenment—is the only way to gain knowledge. While a more modest empirical approach sees science as a useful, but limited instrument to be complemented by the findings of other disciplines (such as literature, philosophy and theology), scientism claims that a materialistic paradigm of investigation has a monopoly on human knowledge. The consequence is that religion, philosophy, metaphysics, logic, and even traditional ethics lose their cognitive status and appear vulnerable to replacement by more “enlightened” thinking.

At the university level, we see the radical disconnect between the sciences and the humanities. Scientists and non-scientists receive very different educations, with very little overlap that would facilitate dialogue between the sciences and other disciplines. Increasingly, scientists are given a highly specialized, technical training, and have little time to ponder the broader questions of human nature and the human condition. At the same time, many students in the humanities are scientifically illiterate and easily confuse ideological claims made on behalf of science with what the science itself is saying. As a result, cultural conversations about the value and purpose of science are often unproductive, as neither sort of education produces individuals who have a good understanding of both the science and the broader moral, legal, and theological considerations necessary to guide its best use.

Scientism exacerbates this problem as it leads people to regard literature, philosophy and religion as unverifiable relics of our pre-scientific past – sources which can no longer contribute to a serious conversation about what is really true. At a personal level, scientism is one of many factors that explain the radical privatization of faith that is being insisted upon by our culture and, to a certain extent, even by our government. The problem is that Christians have acquiesced to a one-sided treaty with secularism, according to which religious believers can retain the therapeutic benefits of belief in the supernatural within the privacy of their own minds, provided secular ideologies define fact and discourse in the public square.

Modern secular thought ignores the reality beyond this world. Secularism is, by its very nature, rooted in this world alone, accounting it the only sure basis of knowledge – the only reliable source of meaning and value. Therefore, the collision between the Christian faith and contemporary secular culture is inevitable. For all teaching of Christian revelation deals with the breaking-in of the greater supernatural order upon our more limited finite world. Secularism is so rooted in this world that it does not allow for the existence of any other. Thus, whenever secularism encounters the Christian mind, either the Christian mind will momentarily shake the roots of the secular “this world mindedness”, or secularism will seduce the Christian mind into a contemplation of a world which overlooks the supernatural. The danger here is that even Christians may start to think that the supernatural is irrelevant to their daily life, so that they no longer see God’s providential hand in nature or in their work as a sacred calling to serve others made in the image of God. In this way, the Christian mind has allowed itself to be subtly secularized by giving a purely chronological status to the eternal. In other words, the Christian has relegated the significance of the eternal to the life after this one. It really is a matter of two very different worldviews.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities –his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools exchanging the glory of God for images, made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” Romans 1:18-23.

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Friends, God did not reveal in His Word unimportant details about himself and his Son. As true scientists we must examine and believe the details. “Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that by believing you may have life in His name.” John 2-:30,31.

There is no theistic evolution. There is only Theistic according the the Word of God, or there is evolution which militates against the doctrine of creation. If you are Theistic with a capital “T” you believe the scriptures: bold print and fine print alike. If you believe in evolution you deny the Theology of the scriptures. Good science does not require belief in evolution or billions of years of formation. In fact, good science remembers its own laws like the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The “theory” of evolution cannot break the 2nd “Law” of Thermodynamics. Without the Triune God and his creating, there is no creation, nothing to study, and no science. Worst of all, if all of scripture is not true, there is no salvation. One cannot believe in Christ as Savior and not believe in Christ as the Word through which God created everything. (Sorry about the break in the post, My cut/paste did something strange. It was my fault, I am sure.)

Believing the Fine Print

We often lament that we should have read the fine print. In other words, we say that “the devil is in the details.” In science, we often need to examine the details: “How was the data procured?”; “How many samples were taken?”; “What is the standard of error?”; “Were the instruments clean and calibrated consistently?” “Can this experiment be replicated to achieve the same statistical results?” “What species was the focus of the testing?” “Did someone really see what is accepted as fact?”

With regard to the details in the scriptures, they are no less important. We want to believe in the promises of God in Jesus Christ: forgiveness of sins, eternal life, etc.; but when it comes to believing some “details” like the crucifixion, some miracles, and the commandments we lose interest. When the scripture tells us that creation occurred in six literal days, we try to rationalize that although scripture does say this, it can’t be fact but only a literary tool. Doing so militates against the veracity of the Word that speaks of our salvation. If we want to understand Jesus and who he really is we must turn to the that reveal to us Jesus Christ as Savior. If we believe what Jesus says about his sacrifice for us, we must also believe in his words about who he is and what he has done as revealed in the rest of the scriptures. Jesus says that the scriptures testify about HIM! At that point he is speaking of the Old Testament scriptures since the New Testament has not been written yet.

In his Gospel, the first chapter, John writes that Jesus is the Word of God in human form. That is a mystery, something we cannot fully understand. In addition, we read that this eternal Word was present at the creation and also brought creation about. Without the Word “nothing was made that has been made”. The same Word that reveals our salvation, is the Word that was spoken “In the beginning” to bring about the existence of all things that have been made. This reveals “details” about the Christ. Although not in the human form of Jesus, the Word which creates is the same person which is the incarnate Word named Jesus. If one wants to believe the details about Christ the Redeemer, Savior, and King, one must believe in the pre-incarnate Christ who was spoken by the Father to create all things. That “fine” print (pun intended), teaches us of Christ’s authority over all things including every creature, which includes each of us whether we believe in Him or not.

In Isaiah 40, God reveals himself as the creator God with details about what he has made and still sustains. In the book of Job, chapter 38 and following God includes specifics about what He has created and sustains. He speaks forthrightly about the details of provisions for each of His creatures. One cannot believe in salvation through Christ Jesus, without also believing the authority of God’s Word in Job, Isaiah, and the rest of scripture. The Apostle John begins his writings with the words “In the beginning” connecting Jesus Christ to the creation of every living thing. He is specifying that if you want to know and understand Jesus the Christ, your savior, you must also believe Genesis 1:1 and following.

To believe only the portions of scripture that we find palatable is really to be deceived by Satan, the world, and our own sinful flesh. We are not the authority on truth, God is. He reveals the truth to us in his Word.

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Just a "drive by" comment on Kirk's excellent post concerning Cain. Gen. 4:3 begins "in the course of time." We have no idea how many children, children's children, and children's children's children were now in the world in this "course of time." There could easily have been large groups of people on the earth by this time to coincide with the later verses in Genesis 4. Just a thought. It seems to me that the Scriptural evidence just isn't there to say that there were "other people" on the earth at the time of Adam and Eve. They are our first parents, and all human life comes from God through them.

The origin of life by God's Word is not superfluo.us, it is vital to the understanding of Creator and created. Genesis Chapter 1, 2, and 3 are vital to any understanding of sin. Sin is not a theory, but a fact, defined by the Divine Being that defined order out of chaos. And the Word was there. Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, he is eternal. One who does not hold this to be true would find it difficult to speak of the Gospel being true. The Word as written in Genesis and the Word Incarnate are one in the same, true and eternal. To believe in one, you must believe in the same in all places. The Word is God's revelation of himself, creation, sin and death, grace and mercy, and the plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. One cannot disown it in one place and claim it in another.

Concerning Cain, God placed the mark on him to show him mercy that he might repent and receive forgiveness under the blood of the covenant. Any other people he encountered were also offspring of Adam and Eve-they had other sons and daughters. Was the land he moved to called the land of Nod before he went there, or is that a reference that came later and was descriptive to Moses and his readers? I live in North Dakota and historical references speak of people arriving in North Dakota even though it was not called North Dakota at the time of their arrival, but later was named as that state.

Cain built a city defying God's sentence that he would be a wanderer on the earth. We have no reference as to whether the city was more than Cain could build on his own. God offered him mercy and protection even if he had no permanent dwelling place. God would care for him. But he defied God and did not trust God's promise.

The latter portion of Genesis 4 suggests that other groups of people were on the earth at the time of Cain’s exile. Cain’s move to the land of Nod sounds as though others had already established territory there. Additionally, the mark of Cain that protected him may not have been needed to protect him from his family, but may be needed to protect him from other people. Cain was among enough people to build a city, also suggesting a significant population outside of Adam and Eve’s family.

I wouldn’t call this “air tight” evidence, but it does seem likely to me.

I actually agree with everything in your post except the statement that Adam and Eve were "not the only humans on the planet at the time." What sources do you base it on?

I also believe Adam and Eve to both be responsible. Eve gave in to Satan's temptation and Adam did nothing to stop it or resist it himself. This also makes sense because both men and women are now sinful and face death. Why punish both if only one was responsible?

Personally, I lean strongly toward Adam and Eve as historical figures, rather than figurative archetypes, but not as the only humans on the planet at the time. I think of their first sin as something of a rapid contagion. Once the "floodgates" of sin were opened by Adam and Eve, the sin nature and the influences of sin spread throughout humanity, with an effect very similar to what would happen if Adam and Eve were both spiritual and physical parents of all humanity.

But as Nate has said, we can still unite regarding the ubiquitous need for the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Tangentially related -- I had a bit of a discussion (some would call it an argument :-P) at another site with an individual that acknowledged the sin of Eve, but claimed it didn't "count" as sin until after Adam sinned, since the New Testament refers to the sin of Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve were co-responsible for the entry of sin. All of your thoughts are appreciated.

As others have said, creation vs. evolution means nothing about our redemption in Jesus Christ. I think it not to be a problem until we need to explain why we need forgiveness. Then I believe there may be a difference in the way that is presented.

I would like to be able to say that regardless of what we believe about the development of life (or the lack thereof), we believe in the risen Jesus Christ that loved us so much that He became incarnate and died for us. I believe there is enough evidence of His life and resurrection be compelling, and even convincing. I don’t believe we all must agree on what I feel are superfluous questions in order to speak the truth of Jesus to others.

I think that all of us would say similar things about the main points of the Gospel: that we have disobeyed God and deserve his punishment, but He sent Jesus to die and rise from the dead to forgive us and give us eternity in heaven. This is what I think is the biggest question. What can we all say to someone who asks "What do Christians believe about evolution"?