On the timescale of cosmic evolution, humans appeared at the "end", but on the Genesis timescale , humans appeared at the "beginning," as Jesus said in Matthew 19:4. Which do you believe is correct and why.
Hi All, I thoroughly recommend watching this strikingly revealing film: - 'Dismantled Evolution' -- ‘A Scientific Deconstruction of the Theory of Evolution’ There will be a FREE one-time weekend premiere of this movie that can only be viewed at anytime BETWEEN 3:00 PM on Friday, Oct 9 to 2:59 PM on Monday, Oct 12 (Australian AEDT) NOTE: Times for other countries are listed at the short Film Trailer link below; but in all countries it will be available to watch for free this weekend. A short Film Trailer is at: https://creation.com/dismantled-movieFrom the page at the link, the following text can be found: - A scientific deconstruction of evolution Education systems and the media have repeatedly told us that humans and all living creatures evolved from a single-celled organism through random copying errors in the DNA (called mutations) and the reproductive filter of natural selection. This allegedly occurred over billions of years through unguided natural processes. Furthermore, we are told that the fossil record leaves no doubt that mankind evolved from ape-like creatures. Famous atheists like Richard Dawkins and Bill Nye tell us that we need to face the facts—we’re nothing more than an organized assemblage of biomolecules: there is no ultimate basis for morality, no ultimate meaning to life, no free will, and no life after death; humans have no soul and we will never stand before God to give an account for our lives. As Dawkins says, “DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” But what if the story we’ve been told about our alleged evolutionary ancestry is wrong, and the latest findings from modern genetics effectively falsify it? Would you believe it? The documentary can only be viewed for free at the same link this weekend only. https://creation.com/dismantled-movie
Good evening, Windar12q. God has demonstrated Himself to me through His kindness toward me no matter how well I do at following His commands, and also through His faithfulness to my family and friends. Ultimately I think God can use anything that happens to demonstrate Himself. Right now I am considering how God might be using this coronavirus outbreak. Nobody near where I live has had a confirmed case, but all of the schools are closed and my classes will be online for an unspecified lenghth of time. Most of the activities in which I participate have also been cancelled, including a class mission trip that I have been looking forward to for years. What is the lesson that He wants to teach me, my family, America as a whole? I think it is one about trusting Him as the anchor when everything else turns upsidedown. If He has something different in mind for these next few months than what I had planned, it is totally within His right to do that. This makes me think of Proverbs 19:21, "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails", and another passage, Psalm 62:2 "Truly He is my rock and my salvation; He is my fortress, I will never be shaken".
Those were my not-really-the-demonstration-you-were-expecting thougts on what God is doing in my life right now. Jesus knows what you need to experience in order for you to put your trust in Him (what kind of demonstration you need), and I pray He will reveal His love to you in a special way.
@ekrause1406 I see signs of camaraderie already beginning to show, which is a good thing. It somehow is taking me back to those dark days of war, but in a good way. The resilience of people has not died, it has been waiting to emerge and maybe this resilience will leave us with a better world.
@windar12q That's good to hear. One of my friends has figured out how to use an online live stream called Google Hangouts that we can use to talk to eachother. We will try it for the first time tomorrow and I am looking forward to it very much. The pastors at my church are working on a Facebook board so we can have service and Bible study together. Do you use similar things?
Thanks for sending the details of communication. I am still learning with this new technology and as you get older your needs become different; however I will try to engage, for every bit of information helps. Thanks again.
Your mind-set goes into another dimension as you age and your priorities that used to linger in your everyday life now take a back seat and you see the world in another shade, but companionship is still to the fore, we all need each other. I am glad things are working out for you - where there's a will, there's a way.
Hello windar12q. To answer your question, I agree with part of the statement but not the whole. I use your statements as headings and describe my thoughts below.
"Different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to succeed."
This is actually a somewhat Biblical idea (though the Bible adds that all people are equally valuable regardless of intellect, see Galatians 3:28). In the Bible this applies to talents and skills that are unique to each person, not necessarily superior and inferior intelligence, but the idea that society needs variety to function is the same (1 Corinthians 12).
"This (differing levels of intellect) is why there are so many religions."
This is the part of your statement that isn't Biblical at all. So many religions exist because of the situation that exists in this world: Because we are made by God in His image we have souls that crave spiritual truth, but at the same time we are corrupted by sin and unable or unwilling to submit to the one true God. It is easy to see how a wide variety of religions would result. God is powerful enough the here force everyone to believe in Him, but He chooses to reveal Himself in the Bible and throughout personal experience and let us respond by accepting or rejecting Him. He wants our love to be genuine, not coerced.
Hello ekrause1406, your reasoning is flawed. I was using different religions to explain the different level of intellect needed for an intelligent species to exist - it has nothing to do with religion at all. These differences are manifest in all pockets of society such as sport, politics, our ideas and even in religion etc, etc.
You are right when you say that so many religions exist because of the situation that exists in this world, but it isn't because people prefer other Gods to yours, it is because without these differences, what would the intelligent mind do? If there are so many different Gods, how can you be sure that you have chosen the right one? There is a way to do this - you have to demonstrate that your God exists.
I know that you cannot do this, but I can demonstrate how these different levels of intellect stimulate the mind into action and take us down a path of progress. Your religion and all the others are dictated to by evolution and so is sport and politics etc, etc.
I have to ask again, even though I know I will get a twisted truth - why do you prefer that which can't be demonstrated to that which can? Think before answering; don't make the same mistake you made about slavery.
I wish you well and pray that you will come to know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus.
It is unfortunate, but nevertheless it must be said that you are incorrectly accusing others of precisely the primary error that you continue to display throughout this forum & other forums relating to the broader creation/evolution debate on this site.
There are too many instances of this happening to simply just ignore it.
For simplicity, the most recent example of this is from your last post; quoting your statement in italics below: -
"I find it mystifying that someone can ignore the facts to get over their point of view, even when that view cannot be backed by concrete evidence, or indeed any evidence at all."
After reading this and other forums on this site, I have not been able to find much in the way of scientifically verifiable facts or evidence provided by you in support of the beliefs and clams you have made.
I sincerely hope that you're able to see this readily confirmed fact is indeed a fact.
Hello burrawang, it's the denying of slavery being immoral and the plagues of Egypt being immoral. Stoning of unruly children is immoral, incest is immoral, genocide is immoral, sacrifice is immoral, killing all witches is immoral, and false because witches don't really exist, killing all those who don't believe is immoral, flooding the world and killing all life is immoral, crucifying your own son for your own incompetence is immoral. I could go on, but what's the use? All these things have been mentioned and no one has come forward to denounce them, maybe you could be the first? I know you won't denounce anything in the Bible, you, like all the others will try to make some excuse. It doesn't matter how much you try, you can't defend the indefensible.
I know you mean well burrawang when you offer prayers for me, but surely you see how condescending that is. It implies that there is something that I should be following even without any proof, and that to me is not within the realms of reality.
Can you name the facts that you accuse me of not displaying?
You will find that anything I say is backed by facts, otherwise I would not use them, and on the other hand, don't you think this is the way you should be describing religion?
If you are referring to my question about evidence to substantiate my claim, evidence is not needed, we are all human and succumb to those human needs.
It is self evident that different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent life to interact and that is why there are thousands of different religions. Are you saying that this is not true because there are no facts to back it up? What facts other than being human do you need? You avoided answering my question, maybe you will this time.
Hi Windar12q, you may like to read an interesting article that discusses the origins debate with physicist Dr. Keith Wanser, B.A., M.A., Ph.D. is Professor of Physics at California State University, Fullerton: - https://creation.com/god-and-the-electron
You may also find enlightening some articles about other well known working physicists and their work at the following links: -
https://creation.com/d-russell-humphreys-cv about Dr. D.Russell Humphreys, who has published widely in secular journals, has numerous patents and has worked for Sandia National Laboratories (New Mexico) in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. In 1985, he began working with Sandia’s ‘Particle Beam Fusion Project’, and is currently working for the Institute for Creation Research where he holds the post of Associate Professor of physics.
https://creation.com/dr-jim-mason about Dr. Jim Mason, B.Sc. in Engineering Physics from Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada and a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics from McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada.
I hope that you will see from the above articles that there are real physicists that know that evolution is a false theory and the Bible contains the true history of the origins of the human family.
@Jonathan Schulz My answer to your question is no. The danger is so obvious - you can't judge reality if you are living in a world that has no foundation in truth, but excepting it as truth. If you scrutinize the previous posts, you will see this clearly. All your colleagues in this debate who are religiously controlled, will twist and turn and even go against society's moral compass to substantiate their faith. Therein lies the danger. I can't emphasize this enough - the world and society would be a lot more peaceful and safe, without religion. Society would go forward more united and more successfully.
Religions segregate more than anything else, and it's only by understanding the reason why there are so many religions, will we be able to tackle this problem. I will give you the reason - these different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to finally arrive at an answer. (Evolution) This is self evident. Unfortunately those of a religious domination have gone so far down the wrong track, they are finding it hard to seek their way back. It is so obvious to me, that it is only by understanding a problem, will you ever solve that problem. I find it mystifying that someone can ignore the facts to get over their point of view, even when that view cannot be backed by concrete evidence, or indeed any evidence at all. (The written word is not evidence, yet this is all that has been forthcoming.) The supernatural cannot be demonstrated and if it could there would be a Nobel prise waiting - any takers?
I will leave you a question, but my guess is you won't answer it honestly, and this is not judging you, but judging how your religion has affected your decision. Don't you agree with me that different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to succeed and this is why there are so many religions? (Evolution) If not, can you give me another reason with demonstrable evidence to back it and claim that Nobel prize?
I think I might potentially agree with your statement (as I understand it), on face value at least (it causes me to think about the doctrine of vocation, although I will say that a person's vocation does not at all determine or stem from a person's intellect). However, I would have to know what you mean by "different levels of intellect" as well as your definitions of "intelligent species" and "succeed" before I can say for sure.
As for the second part of your question, I will say that not everything that is, was, and/or will be real is demonstrable. However, I would appreciate it if you would define the criteria that you use to determine whether something is demonstrable.
As for the rest of your post, I thought of another question/thought that I would be interested in hearing your views on. I noticed that, in your last post, you used the word "truth." What is your definition of "truth," and how do you know that something (or anything at all, for that matter) is "true?" Further, do you believe that "abstract worlds" (as you say) are inherently bad or harmful?
Hello Jonathan. You are right, vocation does not determine a person's intellect. What is more important is the diversity of life and this extends beyond that to the diversity of our human species. We are all different; academically and physically and we are even different in the way we look. All these aspects affect the way we function, because this structure must also affect our intellect and even our subconscious is dictated in the same way, which baffles even more with it's diversity and you can understand why when you consider the complexity of our consciousness. It is this diversity of minds that work in unison and allow us to succeed. This is arrived at by study and observation. Intelligence is the thinking mind, and some think more than others. Religion works in the opposite way, stifling this unison of minds. This is another reason I reject religion.
Demonstrable is what it says on the tin; If I have a pen and tell you it writes, then I proceed to write. You cannot do this with the supernatural.
Truth is something that is demonstrable. I'm afraid your Bible and God, do not fall into this category.
Like I said before, abstract is OK until you begin to think it's real.
I think you will find that relates to transmission of photons not protons. It is about communications via an up-link channel used for transmitting data to a satellite and may be a method of improving communication networks, but be clear and understand that photons are a lot different to sub-atomic particles such as protons.
Hello burrawang, having gone over some of the letters, I noticed you think space travel will be limited to the moon and Mars only. If you look more closely at quantum entanglement you will see that protons can appear from nothing and can also disappear only to pop up in another place instantaneously. China have successfully sent a proton from Earth to the space station using this technique. If you have ever watched Star Trek you will get some idea where space travel will be going - it will be a case of 'Beam me up Scottie.' The future looks bright for space travel and global travel also. There are already quantum computers that are almost ready for the market. (Instantaneous connection.) Faster than the speed of light, which will be another illusion, because the quantum particles, though they appear to be interacting they aren't, they are just one particle.
It is the same way that I describe our emotions - each emotion appears has one when in fact it is two in one. Example - love and hate. It is the same emotion.
I did read your last post. It would require me to regard your word as authority which I do not. Your statements are not supported by scientific fact. If truth is left up to emotions, there can be no truth. If all emotions are positive, how can they teach us right and wrong? Where is the authority of one emotion over another? If emotions rule, how can their be objectivity? Facts are not your god; simple mathematics shows that life from non-life is statistically impossible. Facts would dictate that genetic mutations are not productive and that, as Burrawang stated genetic diversity is declining. Genetic manipulation to bring about desired traits actually reduces genetic diversity.
@Kirk Peters (Evolution-random acts) are left to natural selection; what I am discussing is the diversity of species.
Emotions are a good place from which you can process facts. Take the 'negative emotions of jealousy, hate and anger; without the knowledge of these 'negative' emotions, how would we know how to fight against them? From where could we get our moral compass? The tablet of stone story is weak and not worthy of a God, which reminds me of the plagues of Egypt and the thousands, maybe millions that died, when all God had to do was get rid of the pharaoh. This story, like the tablets of stone, I find embarrassing and wonder how naive we have to be to believe them.
The energy I refer to is a biological energy and all energy, whether biological or not, has to obey the same rules. Life started as one and DNA tells us it is still evolving as one. Think of life as a one energy system and not as many pockets of energy. (Species.) If all life evolved to the same level of intelligence, then intelligent life would start its decline. Intelligence feeds on constructive purpose and all life reaching the same level would destroy that purpose. (This brings about the diversity of life.) A star is a one energy system and when it grows too big to sustain its volume, it implodes; life being biological energy is able to control its volume for now. Think of life as energy and not species.
Your first query regarding random acts of evolution, is concerning natural selection; try not to get my one energy system mixed up.
@windar12q Hello Windar12q! I just did some reading about emotions and the idea that negative emotions can indirectly lead to positive results has some support among researchers. However, I still do not agree with you that this rules out God. The reason for this is that good can exist independently. I read an article that compared goodness to light and evil to shadow. Light is something by itself, shadow only exists if light is blocked. In the same way good is good on its own, but evil is only the absence or corruption of good.
I can think about some of the adjectives you listed as "negative emotions" in your last post in these terms.
Jealousy: wanting something that someone else has (no one would be jealous if no one had anything good to want)
Anger: bitterness because of something bad someone did (if we didn't first believe we should be treated right, we would have no grounds for anger)
Hate: despising someone or something (again, if we didn't believe we deserved to have good things in our lives, we would have no grounds for this emotion)
To me, the very fact that we are able to discuss the nature of good and evil is testament to the nature of God. It is God's nature to value morality, so He created us with the ability to comprehend it. However, we have all gone against what we know is right, and God's holiness cannot tolerate our sin. That is why God took it upon Himself to save us by "His own arm" (see passage below) by sending Jesus to live the perfect life that we couldn't live and to be punished for sin in our place. When Jesus rose from the dead, we were guaranteed eternity with Him in a new earth where there will be only good.
The Lord saw it, and it displeased him[a] that there was no justice.16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede;then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him. - Isaiah 59:15b-16
Your comment about pharaoh also led me to some interesting reading. It is widely agreed that each of the 10 plagues recorded in the Bible is a specific effort to insult and discredit certain Egyptian god(s). Here are some examples.
1. Turning the Nile to blood discredited Apis, Isis, and Khnum, who were believed by the Egyptians to be gods of the Nile.
2. The plague of boils discredited several gods of health (Sekhmet, Sunu, and Isis). Ironically, the Egyptian religious leaders became so ill they could not stand before Moses (Exodus 9:11)
3. The final plague, and I'm sure the one you are wondering the most about, was the death of the firstborn children. This was judgement on the goddess Isis, whom the Egyptians believed protected children. However, this one is unique in its vivid parallels to Jesus. The Israelites were protected from this plague by painting the blood of a perfect lamb on their doors. Jesus is often called the Lamb of God because His blood washes away our sin and saves us from death.
@ekrause1406 Hello ekrause, there is no light and dark when it comes to our emotions. All our emotions are positive, which means they all belong in the light. Without knowing the flip side of our emotions, it would be impossible to function. Our emotions act on different levels, proportional to their function. Can you imagine going through life not knowing what anger is, or hate, or jealousy? Jealousy can be a good emotion, because it can drive us to reach our limit and in doing so, this would benefit society. Knowing hate can help us to protect the right from the wrong - how would life bring up its offspring if it didn't know hate? (Predators) Intelligent life would never have got started. Anger can be harmful to society and to the individual; it's is only by knowing this are we able to control it, but anger has a better side; (different levels) we get angry with ourselves when stuck with a problem and it is only by solving that problem will that anger within ourselves cease. Without anger we would be like the living dead - life could not function. Science would not exist and progress would go backwards. This is why those laws written on stone are worthless and was thought up by people who were fitting it in with their belief and not reality.
The Gods of Egypt were called upon by pharaoh to combat the God of Moses; this does nothing to validate the killings of all those people. The problem still stands - why didn't God just get rid of the pharaoh? This is the same thing as before and what you and others are doing - is making it fit your belief and ignoring reality.
If religion goes on twisting the truth, it is building pie in the sky and society suffers because of this. Reality and faith are like oil and water, they will never mix and one of them has to be removed - take your choice; do we get rid of faith, or do we get rid of reality? There is only one way of working out this equation and it's not very hard.
How do we weigh light? How much does heat weigh? If energy is mass then we should be able to weigh it. Windar12q, Why do you say evolution is a closed system? What closes it; what are the limits. You earlier mentioned standing outside the Universe; at what point can you know the limits to the universe so that you can look at it as a closed system. You say that God cannot be the source of biodiversity; but that is what a "God" is, he can do anything. Your god is evolution and science. Neither of them has the capability to do what ever "they" want because we know of limits that are certifiable. I believe very much in science, but not as a god; rather, a way of understanding some things about our universe. As Burrawang stated, the creation "speaks" to us about God. Biodiversity shows us that God is precise, appreciates beauty, is wise, and knows more that I certainly do. This is called "Natural Revelation". Special Revelation, on the other hand comes from the written Word. From the Word we receive revelation about God's invisible qualities, love, mercy, grace. Those who believe in God are delighted to investigate both Natural and Special revelation, not to mention historical evidence of God's work. Again, there are historical and eye witness accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection. This validates the words of the Old Testament in Jesus' own words. Drive to understand God's creation is not limited by faith in God as creator, it increases it. The Big Bang theory is more detrimental to scientific investigation. It attempts to explain things in ways that allow difficult or impossible things to occur. To do so, it violates scientific laws that can be demonstrated. Thus, true science is harmed and thinking is allowed to follow speculations about life and our physical world. Assuming that God does not exist introduces a bias that is not productive to the truth.
Hello Kirk, Mass is atoms and atoms are energy. If not, then Einstein was wrong and we will scrap his equation of relativity. This I cannot do, because atoms are a basic fact to all that we know and understand. Science is not my God, I don't agree with science on every point, which you will see if you scrutinize my last letter to ekrause1406. Do you see the difference between us? You are afraid to question your Bible, but I dare question science and religion. Facts are my God.
God does not need to exist to bring forth productive truth - our emotions do that. Our emotions whether we think they are negative or positive, complement each other. How would we know love, if we didn't know hate? The information coming from our emotions guides us through life; without this correlation of what seems negative and positive emotions, we would perish by the roadside. It is just an illusion - all emotions are positive there are no positive and negative emotions. They teach us what is bad and what is good; there is no need for tablets of stone to tell us. Human weakness can sometimes mislead the most vulnerable and this is when these emotions are used in the wrong way, and that is why it is important to learn the truth. The Bible is telling it the wrong way.
I can look at the universe from outside, because the energy it contains is indestructible and if it's is indestructible it must be orderly.
If you read my last reply to ekrause, you will find out why God has nothing to do with the diversity of life.
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?" Job 12:7-9
I answered this in my last reply to ekrause1406. I explain why the diversity of life could not have come from a God. You are doing the same thing again - making things suit what you believe and not what is real. There is no way you can demonstrate your claim - you cannot charge me with the same misdemeanour.
Hi Windar12q, I will try to address in blue text each of the points that you raised in your response.
Hi burrawang, I have been having the same technical trouble and have not been able to reply.
A bit strange that we both have experienced the same inability to post, yet we are on opposite sides of the planet; the site administrator advised to the effect that there were no known problems at their end but it would appear to be more widespread than that, has anyone else had difficulty posting on these forums?
When you say abiogenesis is demonstrably impossible, but so is God; so the answer still remains a mystery.
Encyclopaedia Britannica states, “Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from non-life more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were simple and gradually became increasingly complex.”
The Second Law of Thermodynamics alone falsifies Abiogenesis, without even considering the enormous quantity of well researched REAL evidence that also falsifies it. The killer blow to abiogenesis and evolution is the easily repeated experimentally proven FACT that ALL GENOMESare rapidly losing complex specified information from their genomes every generation. This FACT is the antithesis of evolution!
However my research is pointing to energy as the source of all things in the universe and that includes evolution.
How can energy be the source of all things? As the quantity of energy increases the quantity of entropy increases because they, i.e. energy and entropy are directly proportional to each other.
It is a proven fact that in QM, protons can appear from nothing, which takes me on to the entropy that you mention.
Well, actually, no.
Energy and matter are interchangeable and quantum mechanics physics has demonstrated that Protons can appear from what are thought to be non-material (mass less) energy fields but it has not been demonstrated that they appear from nothing as you have stated. That would be in the realm of metaphysics, not verifiable by QM or any other discipline of modern science.
Though science references back ground micro wave radiation as remnants from the Big Bang - with the discovery of how protons act, it is possible perhaps that the waves could be coming from a universe that is still expanding - the big bang could still be taking place.
Although it is widely thought by adherents to the big bang theory, it is most definitely not proven that the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is a remnant from the big bang.
Regarding expansion, the evidence that big-bangers cite is correct that we observe redshift in light coming from distant stars and galaxies that has been interpreted using the well known phenomenon in physics, the Doppler effect, in which wave energy is shifted to a longer or shorter wavelength because the light source is moving relative to the observer.
We also observe blueshift in some galaxies, that has been interpreted as those galaxies are coming towards us.
This phenomena in distant starlight was discovered by Edwin Hubble and published by him in 1929; he observed that there was a correlation with distance, the farther away the galaxy light source, the higher the redshift. If the redshift were caused by the Doppler effect, then it would appear that galaxies were receding at incredible speeds and the furthermost galaxies were receding faster than the closer ones.
Therefore, if you reverse the expansion, by theoretically going back in time to when the expansion logically must have commenced, it would appear according to the big-bang theory that there was a point where all space. time and matter of the universe were in the same place, a single point or singularity.
A Belgian priest named Abbe Georges-Henri Lemaitre reasoned that to escape the immense gravitational pull of the "singularity" the universe must have exploded into existence as we appear to see it today still expanding.
This however raised the prospect of the situation whereby all the laws of physics would break down in the supposed singularity and any explanation would have to appeal to forces beyond physics. That is why physicists today only talk about the big-bang AFTER the theorised big-bang explosion had already taken place, because at the pre-explosion point, it is beyond our knowledge of physics to understand, including QM, if this theory was in fact how we came to have the universe we have.
The modern scientific approach had been designed to explain the universe in terms of the natural, not the supernatural and modern science was and still is inadequate to explain the physics of a singularity. It has been postulated that the big-bang would have to have been a massive thermonuclear explosion that would have released huge amounts of heat energy throughout the whole universe.
Around 1965, two Americans Penzias and Wilson published their work and were awarded the Nobel Prize for their discovery of the CMBR. The CMBR is an observable phenomena but the big-bang theory is an attempt to explain some parts of what we observe in accordance with or within a naturalistic/materialist philosophical framework. It is possible that we may never know for sure what the CMBR is, but in the big picture, it really is not that important, though much song and dance is made about the CMBR by adherents to the big-bang claiming it as a proof of their theory; it may well turn out to be caused by some yet unknown phenomena; only time will tell.
There are many severe problems with the main big-bang theory that include: -
1.) The theory just does not work. The theorised primordial explosion would only produce an expanding cloud of gas that would not spontaneously reverse their expansion and collapse into stars, galaxies planets, asteroids etc.
2.) The theory lacks a credible and consistent mechanism. Big-bang theory is based on the laws of physics yet those laws cannot explain the important components of the model, e.g. there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of a singularity.
3.) Chemical evolution of life is clearly excluded by the evidence. The laws of chemistry preclude the supposed chemical evolutionary process from ever occurring.
4.) Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject. Science operates in the present by observation and experiment, it has no direct access to the past. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is the worldview in which the evidence is viewed and considered that will dictate the direction and results that are interpreted in accordance with the worldview or ruling paradigm.
It is a verifiable fact that there are many prominent astronomers, astrophysicist’s and cosmologists who think the big bang is a load of nonsense and I tend to agree with that opinion.
From your part of the globe, the late, brilliant world famous astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle who coined the name big-bang considered the big-bang theory was, (quoting him): -
“dull-as-ditchwater expansion which degrades itself adiabatically (i.e. without gain or loss of heat) until it is incapable of doing anything at all. The notion that galaxies form, to be followed by an active astronomical history, is an illusion. Nothing forms; the thing is dead as a doornail.”
Don't you see how your religion is blinding you from seeing past that book of yours.
I could say precisely the same about your belief that “energy is the source of all things”, you see it all depends on your worldview. This debate is not about the evidence, it is about worldviews, and ultimately it is about the condition of our hearts and our spiritual health; (not the heart beating in our chests but spiritually speaking, our hearts).
Your assertion of entropy is correct up to a point, but that does not mean the end of everything.
Well, if it was left to go for long enough, universal heat death would occur, and all work (in the physics sense) would cease to be possible, but I agree, though for a different reason; I believe that God will intervene well before the Second Law of Thermodynamics has completed its inexorable journey.
If you read my last post to ekrause1406 you will see how easy it is to mistake the work of God for something entirely different and entirely natural. If religion keeps on insisting that abiogenesis is the work of some divine being, then we are never going to solve this mystery; surely you must acknowledge this?
Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Despite the above Chapter 1 from Genesis being the truth that God has revealed to us, this description is the most rational, sane and scientifically logical account for how we came to be here discussing this topic! No other explanation that I have seen even comes close to the Biblical account of origins.
If our future lies beyond the horizon and on into space, surely, the secret of life would be of the most importance, because we would be going where no man has been before and without this knowledge to guide us. I can see no logic in trying to suppress the means that will help us to find an answer.
The furthest we are going to get regarding space travel is the Moon and maybe at a stretch Mars; I do not see any prospect in the future of travelling beyond those two orbs in our solar system; any ideas of such are over-simplified science fiction. Space is far too vast and inhospitable for human beings without even considering the enormous expense involved to even put a few people in space in a world where there is so much poverty, inequality and pain.
I wish you well burrawang.
Likewise with respect and concern, I wish you well windar12q.
PLEASE, for eternities sake; read the Books of The New Testament if you wish to discover truth, for it is truly there that you will find it.
You have misquoted the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The entropy of an isolated system can never decrease, but can stabilize. Evolution is an isolated system and is stabilized.
To carry this further - when looking out into the universe we see entropy, but if you can imagine standing outside the universe and looking in, you will only see order.
When you refer to abiogenesis as the unmistakable hand of God, you are missing the fundamental capacity of the thinking brain. Let me demonstrate where your religious reasoning is falling short on this capacity. Religion, because it shares the same views, has stopped thinking. Let's compare this to science. Hydrothermal vents in the oceans allow heat, created by chemical reaction, which occurs between the sea water rock. Methane and hydrogen gas from these vents feed this microbial world. These elements, like plants need water and sunlight to grow. Can you imagine folk with the same religious mind-set as you, ever discovering this marvel of nature, that may lead us to the answer of how life began? I am afraid not; you are unintentionally putting forth that which suits your belief and not what is real. During this debate, it has become obvious that this is the same way you and others treat your Bible. You can't twist things to suit what is not demonstrable for something that is. Using this type of logic, you can build any kind of world that makes you feel good, but that does not add any value to society- it will only destroy in time if allowed to grow.
You point out that matter and energy are interchangeable, and who can argue with that, but let me give you a better description, which you seem to have avoided. To be technically correct, we are talking about mass, not matter. Einstein's equation does not necessarily mean that mass and energy are interchangeable - it means they are the same. Mass is energy and energy is mass. It is not an issue of converting from one to the other - it's a matter of them being the same thing - just different frames of references.
Apologies for my absence from this forum, I encountered an unknown cause technical problem that prevented posting anything on this forum; it now appears to be accessible again, so I will just add the post below that I had initially drafted but was unable to post some weeks ago now.
Windar12q, the truth is that God exists, He is very real. I cannot empirically prove this fact to you, no-one but you can prove this profound truth to yourself.
If as you say you are honestly searching for the truth, then read the Bible starting with the New Testament and the truth will become known to you. Jesus is faithful, He knows all your strengths and faults, yet He still Loves you more than you could ever know.
Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Kirk is correct, everything is incessantly heading towards greater disorder, or an increase in entropy, order cannot come from disorder as is claimed in the evolutionary origin’s myth. Regardless of the evolutionary version you put your faith in, evolution of any form is demonstrably not possible. All forms of evolution are nothing more than variations of an elaborate, widely perpetrated hoax.
Regarding your references to Quantum Mechanics (QM); it is a fact that atomic and molecular orbital theory is supported by evidence and does provide logical scientific explanations to some physics questions that Newtonian physics cannot answer, but, it is many bridges too far to invoke entanglement and QM as an explanation for biological evolution. Furthermore, energy continually works towards greater entropy, the greater the energy, the greater the entropy; an obvious simple example is the sun, it is consuming its fuel and emitting energy that ultimately causes greater disorder in the universe; the sun will eventually run out of fuel and will go cold, no further emissions of energy will occur, as far as we presently know, everything in the universe is heading towards this same state.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that: -
· A.) order ultimately deteriorates towards disorder
· B.)information deteriorates, i.e. complex information is losing complexity
· C.) the entropy of the universe is ultimately always increasing (entropy is a measure of disorder)
· D.)usable energy that can perform work is constantly decreasing, eventually to zero.
Regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Dr John Ross of Harvard University states: -
“… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.”
Our best scientific endeavours show us that the universe is like an old clockwork clock that is rapidly running down which logically then indicates that it was more wound up in the past. The direct implications of this fact alone (if understood in its entirety) utterly demolishes evolution to be a falsified theory!
Yet another profound truth that I cannot prove empirically to you, but is fact nonetheless, is that God presently sustains the universe; if He didn’t, we wouldn’t be here, and the universe would cease to exist.
Colossians 1: 9-23
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,
10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The terrible consequences of sin, (i.e. rebellion against God); sets all of us on a path that ultimately leads to destruction and the second death. It is because of the fact that we all have sinned and must pay the penalty of death incurred by our sins that we all need the gift of salvation from God, paid by God Himself on the cross about 2,000 years ago which is the Good News, the Gospel of our Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
There is a vast amount of rigorously obtained scientific evidence in existence now that indicates that the old earth "billions of years" paradigm is a myth and that evolution and abiogenesis are demonstrably impossible despite the trillions of dollars that have been spent trying to prove they are plausible. The constant propping up and reinforcement of these myths is the only reason that they still exist in popular culture and academia.
As further scientific evidence becomes known that refutes the "deep time and evolutionary" myths, new stories are dreamed up that attempt the explain away the inconvenient truths. I have observed this process happening over the past thirty years and don't expect the game plan of the devoutly religious evolutionary devotees to significantly change in the coming decades.
I sincerely hope and pray that young students studying science now will have the courage and intellect to see through the presently carefully performed charade to get this area of science back on track by conducting evidence based research rather than the unscientific dogma driven mythology that at its heart is really about rebellion against our Creator, (though most of evolution's devout adherents would not be consciously aware of that fact).
Windar12q, I pray that you will come to know our Creator who has known you even before you were born.
Hi burrawang, I have been having the same technical trouble and have not been able to reply.
When you say abiogenesis is demonstrably impossible, but so is God; so the answer still remains a mystery. However my research is pointing to energy as the source of all things in the universe and that includes evolution. It is a proven fact that in QM, protons can appear from nothing, which takes me on to the entropy that you mention. Though science references back ground micro wave radiation as remnants from the Big Bang - with the discovery of how protons act, it is possible perhaps that the waves could be coming from a universe that is still expanding - the big bang could still be taking place. Don't you see how your religion is blinding you from seeing past that book of yours. Your assertion of entropy is correct up to a point, but that does not mean the end of everything.
If you read my last post to ekrause1406 you will see how easy it is to mistake the work of God for something entirely different and entirely natural. If religion keeps on insisting that abiogenesis is the work of some divine being, then we are never going to solve this mystery; surely you must acknowledge this? If our future lies beyond the horizon and on into space, surely, the secret of life would be of the most importance, because we would be going where no man has been before and without this knowledge to guide us. I can see no logic in trying to suppress the means that will help us to find an answer.
Thanks for the references. Good stuff, I will have to spend some time grasping it all. No problem with the 6000 years for the age of the earth. I just know that some of the calculations for that proposed age were based on assumptions I am not willing to make.
Windar12Q, where did the energy come from? How was energy system arranged? Are you doing some experimentation in your research? What questions are you trying to answer? What are the "Facts" you have discovered? As to whether all living things are connected, that determination is dependent on what criteria you use. If you connect them by whether they are living or not, there is a connection. If you set the criteria at having a heart beat or not, they are not connected. If you say they all came from the same random beginning you have to provide information about that event. I do believe that all life is "connected" they were created by an intelligent designer. Jesus, the one that predicted his death and resurrection, commends the account in Genesis. Jesus is a good source according to the evidence presented in the scriptures and elsewhere. The shortfalls in scientific evidence convinces me that life can not be organized or initiated by random events. Actually, the scientific method requires you to disprove your hypothesis. If your hypothesis stands the active attempt to disprove it, then it has the potential of being true. The physical laws of thermodynamics disprove the idea that order arose from disorder on it's own. Statistical analysis of the proper arrangements for DNA stands at the very lowest levels shows that it is impossible at scientifically accepted levels of probability. God cannot be disproved. Some conditions and events in the appearance of life are only satisfied by an intelligent designer.
One of the problems I see with much of evolutionary speculation is that it is just that. A correlation is seen, and it is presented as fact without statistically significant attempts to disprove it. I have also seen evidence that things that don't fit the correlations are disregarded as "anomalies". When I was involved with soil science research this was not permitted. Only a stated probability could allow for the hypotheses to pass the attempt to disprove.
Also, forgive me for saying "If you accept the 6000 year" age of the earth. I should have written "If one accepts". That mistake got me into a difficulty in discussion with Burrawang. My apologies.
Hi All, I thoroughly recommend watching this strikingly revealing film: - 'Dismantled Evolution' -- ‘A Scientific Deconstruction of the Theory of Evolution’ There will be a FREE one-time weekend premiere of this movie that can only be viewed at anytime BETWEEN 3:00 PM on Friday, Oct 9 to 2:59 PM on Monday, Oct 12 (Australian AEDT) NOTE: Times for other countries are listed at the short Film Trailer link below; but in all countries it will be available to watch for free this weekend. A short Film Trailer is at: https://creation.com/dismantled-movie From the page at the link, the following text can be found: - A scientific deconstruction of evolution Education systems and the media have repeatedly told us that humans and all living creatures evolved from a single-celled organism through random copying errors in the DNA (called mutations) and the reproductive filter of natural selection. This allegedly occurred over billions of years through unguided natural processes. Furthermore, we are told that the fossil record leaves no doubt that mankind evolved from ape-like creatures. Famous atheists like Richard Dawkins and Bill Nye tell us that we need to face the facts—we’re nothing more than an organized assemblage of biomolecules: there is no ultimate basis for morality, no ultimate meaning to life, no free will, and no life after death; humans have no soul and we will never stand before God to give an account for our lives. As Dawkins says, “DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” But what if the story we’ve been told about our alleged evolutionary ancestry is wrong, and the latest findings from modern genetics effectively falsify it? Would you believe it? The documentary can only be viewed for free at the same link this weekend only. https://creation.com/dismantled-movie
Good evening, Windar12q. God has demonstrated Himself to me through His kindness toward me no matter how well I do at following His commands, and also through His faithfulness to my family and friends. Ultimately I think God can use anything that happens to demonstrate Himself. Right now I am considering how God might be using this coronavirus outbreak. Nobody near where I live has had a confirmed case, but all of the schools are closed and my classes will be online for an unspecified lenghth of time. Most of the activities in which I participate have also been cancelled, including a class mission trip that I have been looking forward to for years. What is the lesson that He wants to teach me, my family, America as a whole? I think it is one about trusting Him as the anchor when everything else turns upsidedown. If He has something different in mind for these next few months than what I had planned, it is totally within His right to do that. This makes me think of Proverbs 19:21, "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails", and another passage, Psalm 62:2 "Truly He is my rock and my salvation; He is my fortress, I will never be shaken".
Those were my not-really-the-demonstration-you-were-expecting thougts on what God is doing in my life right now. Jesus knows what you need to experience in order for you to put your trust in Him (what kind of demonstration you need), and I pray He will reveal His love to you in a special way.
Hello windar12q. To answer your question, I agree with part of the statement but not the whole. I use your statements as headings and describe my thoughts below.
"Different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to succeed."
This is actually a somewhat Biblical idea (though the Bible adds that all people are equally valuable regardless of intellect, see Galatians 3:28). In the Bible this applies to talents and skills that are unique to each person, not necessarily superior and inferior intelligence, but the idea that society needs variety to function is the same (1 Corinthians 12).
"This (differing levels of intellect) is why there are so many religions."
This is the part of your statement that isn't Biblical at all. So many religions exist because of the situation that exists in this world: Because we are made by God in His image we have souls that crave spiritual truth, but at the same time we are corrupted by sin and unable or unwilling to submit to the one true God. It is easy to see how a wide variety of religions would result. God is powerful enough the here force everyone to believe in Him, but He chooses to reveal Himself in the Bible and throughout personal experience and let us respond by accepting or rejecting Him. He wants our love to be genuine, not coerced.
Good night.
windar12q,
I wish you well and pray that you will come to know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus.
It is unfortunate, but nevertheless it must be said that you are incorrectly accusing others of precisely the primary error that you continue to display throughout this forum & other forums relating to the broader creation/evolution debate on this site.
There are too many instances of this happening to simply just ignore it.
For simplicity, the most recent example of this is from your last post; quoting your statement in italics below: -
"I find it mystifying that someone can ignore the facts to get over their point of view, even when that view cannot be backed by concrete evidence, or indeed any evidence at all."
After reading this and other forums on this site, I have not been able to find much in the way of scientifically verifiable facts or evidence provided by you in support of the beliefs and clams you have made.
I sincerely hope that you're able to see this readily confirmed fact is indeed a fact.
Regards,
Burrawang
Hi Windar12q, you may like to read an interesting article that discusses the origins debate with physicist Dr. Keith Wanser, B.A., M.A., Ph.D. is Professor of Physics at California State University, Fullerton: - https://creation.com/god-and-the-electron
You may also find enlightening some articles about other well known working physicists and their work at the following links: -
https://creation.com/d-russell-humphreys-cv about Dr. D.Russell Humphreys, who has published widely in secular journals, has numerous patents and has worked for Sandia National Laboratories (New Mexico) in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. In 1985, he began working with Sandia’s ‘Particle Beam Fusion Project’, and is currently working for the Institute for Creation Research where he holds the post of Associate Professor of physics.
https://creation.com/dr-jim-mason about Dr. Jim Mason, B.Sc. in Engineering Physics from Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada and a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics from McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada.
https://creation.com/brandon-vd-interview about Dr. Brandon van der Ventel, a nuclear physicist who works on relativistic descriptions of nuclear reactions.
You may also find interesting, a series of physics articles at https://creation.com/topics/physics
I hope that you will see from the above articles that there are real physicists that know that evolution is a false theory and the Bible contains the true history of the origins of the human family.
I think you will find that relates to transmission of photons not protons. It is about communications via an up-link channel used for transmitting data to a satellite and may be a method of improving communication networks, but be clear and understand that photons are a lot different to sub-atomic particles such as protons.
Hello burrawang, having gone over some of the letters, I noticed you think space travel will be limited to the moon and Mars only. If you look more closely at quantum entanglement you will see that protons can appear from nothing and can also disappear only to pop up in another place instantaneously. China have successfully sent a proton from Earth to the space station using this technique. If you have ever watched Star Trek you will get some idea where space travel will be going - it will be a case of 'Beam me up Scottie.' The future looks bright for space travel and global travel also. There are already quantum computers that are almost ready for the market. (Instantaneous connection.) Faster than the speed of light, which will be another illusion, because the quantum particles, though they appear to be interacting they aren't, they are just one particle.
It is the same way that I describe our emotions - each emotion appears has one when in fact it is two in one. Example - love and hate. It is the same emotion.
Keep well
I did read your last post. It would require me to regard your word as authority which I do not. Your statements are not supported by scientific fact. If truth is left up to emotions, there can be no truth. If all emotions are positive, how can they teach us right and wrong? Where is the authority of one emotion over another? If emotions rule, how can their be objectivity? Facts are not your god; simple mathematics shows that life from non-life is statistically impossible. Facts would dictate that genetic mutations are not productive and that, as Burrawang stated genetic diversity is declining. Genetic manipulation to bring about desired traits actually reduces genetic diversity.
How do we weigh light? How much does heat weigh? If energy is mass then we should be able to weigh it. Windar12q, Why do you say evolution is a closed system? What closes it; what are the limits. You earlier mentioned standing outside the Universe; at what point can you know the limits to the universe so that you can look at it as a closed system. You say that God cannot be the source of biodiversity; but that is what a "God" is, he can do anything. Your god is evolution and science. Neither of them has the capability to do what ever "they" want because we know of limits that are certifiable. I believe very much in science, but not as a god; rather, a way of understanding some things about our universe. As Burrawang stated, the creation "speaks" to us about God. Biodiversity shows us that God is precise, appreciates beauty, is wise, and knows more that I certainly do. This is called "Natural Revelation". Special Revelation, on the other hand comes from the written Word. From the Word we receive revelation about God's invisible qualities, love, mercy, grace. Those who believe in God are delighted to investigate both Natural and Special revelation, not to mention historical evidence of God's work. Again, there are historical and eye witness accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection. This validates the words of the Old Testament in Jesus' own words. Drive to understand God's creation is not limited by faith in God as creator, it increases it. The Big Bang theory is more detrimental to scientific investigation. It attempts to explain things in ways that allow difficult or impossible things to occur. To do so, it violates scientific laws that can be demonstrated. Thus, true science is harmed and thinking is allowed to follow speculations about life and our physical world. Assuming that God does not exist introduces a bias that is not productive to the truth.
Kirk
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?" Job 12:7-9
Hi Windar12q, I will try to address in blue text each of the points that you raised in your response.
Hi burrawang, I have been having the same technical trouble and have not been able to reply.
A bit strange that we both have experienced the same inability to post, yet we are on opposite sides of the planet; the site administrator advised to the effect that there were no known problems at their end but it would appear to be more widespread than that, has anyone else had difficulty posting on these forums?
When you say abiogenesis is demonstrably impossible, but so is God; so the answer still remains a mystery.
Encyclopaedia Britannica states, “Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from non-life more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were simple and gradually became increasingly complex.”
The Second Law of Thermodynamics alone falsifies Abiogenesis, without even considering the enormous quantity of well researched REAL evidence that also falsifies it. The killer blow to abiogenesis and evolution is the easily repeated experimentally proven FACT that ALL GENOMES are rapidly losing complex specified information from their genomes every generation. This FACT is the antithesis of evolution!
However my research is pointing to energy as the source of all things in the universe and that includes evolution.
How can energy be the source of all things? As the quantity of energy increases the quantity of entropy increases because they, i.e. energy and entropy are directly proportional to each other.
It is a proven fact that in QM, protons can appear from nothing, which takes me on to the entropy that you mention.
Well, actually, no.
Energy and matter are interchangeable and quantum mechanics physics has demonstrated that Protons can appear from what are thought to be non-material (mass less) energy fields but it has not been demonstrated that they appear from nothing as you have stated. That would be in the realm of metaphysics, not verifiable by QM or any other discipline of modern science.
Though science references back ground micro wave radiation as remnants from the Big Bang - with the discovery of how protons act, it is possible perhaps that the waves could be coming from a universe that is still expanding - the big bang could still be taking place.
Although it is widely thought by adherents to the big bang theory, it is most definitely not proven that the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is a remnant from the big bang.
Regarding expansion, the evidence that big-bangers cite is correct that we observe redshift in light coming from distant stars and galaxies that has been interpreted using the well known phenomenon in physics, the Doppler effect, in which wave energy is shifted to a longer or shorter wavelength because the light source is moving relative to the observer.
We also observe blueshift in some galaxies, that has been interpreted as those galaxies are coming towards us.
This phenomena in distant starlight was discovered by Edwin Hubble and published by him in 1929; he observed that there was a correlation with distance, the farther away the galaxy light source, the higher the redshift. If the redshift were caused by the Doppler effect, then it would appear that galaxies were receding at incredible speeds and the furthermost galaxies were receding faster than the closer ones.
Therefore, if you reverse the expansion, by theoretically going back in time to when the expansion logically must have commenced, it would appear according to the big-bang theory that there was a point where all space. time and matter of the universe were in the same place, a single point or singularity.
A Belgian priest named Abbe Georges-Henri Lemaitre reasoned that to escape the immense gravitational pull of the "singularity" the universe must have exploded into existence as we appear to see it today still expanding.
This however raised the prospect of the situation whereby all the laws of physics would break down in the supposed singularity and any explanation would have to appeal to forces beyond physics. That is why physicists today only talk about the big-bang AFTER the theorised big-bang explosion had already taken place, because at the pre-explosion point, it is beyond our knowledge of physics to understand, including QM, if this theory was in fact how we came to have the universe we have.
The modern scientific approach had been designed to explain the universe in terms of the natural, not the supernatural and modern science was and still is inadequate to explain the physics of a singularity. It has been postulated that the big-bang would have to have been a massive thermonuclear explosion that would have released huge amounts of heat energy throughout the whole universe.
Around 1965, two Americans Penzias and Wilson published their work and were awarded the Nobel Prize for their discovery of the CMBR. The CMBR is an observable phenomena but the big-bang theory is an attempt to explain some parts of what we observe in accordance with or within a naturalistic/materialist philosophical framework. It is possible that we may never know for sure what the CMBR is, but in the big picture, it really is not that important, though much song and dance is made about the CMBR by adherents to the big-bang claiming it as a proof of their theory; it may well turn out to be caused by some yet unknown phenomena; only time will tell.
There are many severe problems with the main big-bang theory that include: -
1.) The theory just does not work. The theorised primordial explosion would only produce an expanding cloud of gas that would not spontaneously reverse their expansion and collapse into stars, galaxies planets, asteroids etc.
2.) The theory lacks a credible and consistent mechanism. Big-bang theory is based on the laws of physics yet those laws cannot explain the important components of the model, e.g. there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of a singularity.
3.) Chemical evolution of life is clearly excluded by the evidence. The laws of chemistry preclude the supposed chemical evolutionary process from ever occurring.
4.) Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject. Science operates in the present by observation and experiment, it has no direct access to the past. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is the worldview in which the evidence is viewed and considered that will dictate the direction and results that are interpreted in accordance with the worldview or ruling paradigm.
It is a verifiable fact that there are many prominent astronomers, astrophysicist’s and cosmologists who think the big bang is a load of nonsense and I tend to agree with that opinion.
From your part of the globe, the late, brilliant world famous astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle who coined the name big-bang considered the big-bang theory was, (quoting him): -
“dull-as-ditchwater expansion which degrades itself adiabatically (i.e. without gain or loss of heat) until it is incapable of doing anything at all. The notion that galaxies form, to be followed by an active astronomical history, is an illusion. Nothing forms; the thing is dead as a doornail.”
Don't you see how your religion is blinding you from seeing past that book of yours.
I could say precisely the same about your belief that “energy is the source of all things”, you see it all depends on your worldview. This debate is not about the evidence, it is about worldviews, and ultimately it is about the condition of our hearts and our spiritual health; (not the heart beating in our chests but spiritually speaking, our hearts).
Your assertion of entropy is correct up to a point, but that does not mean the end of everything.
Well, if it was left to go for long enough, universal heat death would occur, and all work (in the physics sense) would cease to be possible, but I agree, though for a different reason; I believe that God will intervene well before the Second Law of Thermodynamics has completed its inexorable journey.
If you read my last post to ekrause1406 you will see how easy it is to mistake the work of God for something entirely different and entirely natural. If religion keeps on insisting that abiogenesis is the work of some divine being, then we are never going to solve this mystery; surely you must acknowledge this?
Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Despite the above Chapter 1 from Genesis being the truth that God has revealed to us, this description is the most rational, sane and scientifically logical account for how we came to be here discussing this topic! No other explanation that I have seen even comes close to the Biblical account of origins.
If our future lies beyond the horizon and on into space, surely, the secret of life would be of the most importance, because we would be going where no man has been before and without this knowledge to guide us. I can see no logic in trying to suppress the means that will help us to find an answer.
The furthest we are going to get regarding space travel is the Moon and maybe at a stretch Mars; I do not see any prospect in the future of travelling beyond those two orbs in our solar system; any ideas of such are over-simplified science fiction. Space is far too vast and inhospitable for human beings without even considering the enormous expense involved to even put a few people in space in a world where there is so much poverty, inequality and pain.
I wish you well burrawang.
Likewise with respect and concern, I wish you well windar12q.
PLEASE, for eternities sake; read the Books of The New Testament if you wish to discover truth, for it is truly there that you will find it.
Regards,
B
Apologies for my absence from this forum, I encountered an unknown cause technical problem that prevented posting anything on this forum; it now appears to be accessible again, so I will just add the post below that I had initially drafted but was unable to post some weeks ago now.
Windar12q, the truth is that God exists, He is very real. I cannot empirically prove this fact to you, no-one but you can prove this profound truth to yourself.
If as you say you are honestly searching for the truth, then read the Bible starting with the New Testament and the truth will become known to you. Jesus is faithful, He knows all your strengths and faults, yet He still Loves you more than you could ever know.
Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Kirk is correct, everything is incessantly heading towards greater disorder, or an increase in entropy, order cannot come from disorder as is claimed in the evolutionary origin’s myth. Regardless of the evolutionary version you put your faith in, evolution of any form is demonstrably not possible. All forms of evolution are nothing more than variations of an elaborate, widely perpetrated hoax.
Regarding your references to Quantum Mechanics (QM); it is a fact that atomic and molecular orbital theory is supported by evidence and does provide logical scientific explanations to some physics questions that Newtonian physics cannot answer, but, it is many bridges too far to invoke entanglement and QM as an explanation for biological evolution. Furthermore, energy continually works towards greater entropy, the greater the energy, the greater the entropy; an obvious simple example is the sun, it is consuming its fuel and emitting energy that ultimately causes greater disorder in the universe; the sun will eventually run out of fuel and will go cold, no further emissions of energy will occur, as far as we presently know, everything in the universe is heading towards this same state.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that: -
· A.) order ultimately deteriorates towards disorder
· B.) information deteriorates, i.e. complex information is losing complexity
· C.) the entropy of the universe is ultimately always increasing (entropy is a measure of disorder)
· D.) usable energy that can perform work is constantly decreasing, eventually to zero.
Regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Dr John Ross of Harvard University states: -
“… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.”
Our best scientific endeavours show us that the universe is like an old clockwork clock that is rapidly running down which logically then indicates that it was more wound up in the past. The direct implications of this fact alone (if understood in its entirety) utterly demolishes evolution to be a falsified theory!
Yet another profound truth that I cannot prove empirically to you, but is fact nonetheless, is that God presently sustains the universe; if He didn’t, we wouldn’t be here, and the universe would cease to exist.
Colossians 1: 9-23
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,
10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The terrible consequences of sin, (i.e. rebellion against God); sets all of us on a path that ultimately leads to destruction and the second death. It is because of the fact that we all have sinned and must pay the penalty of death incurred by our sins that we all need the gift of salvation from God, paid by God Himself on the cross about 2,000 years ago which is the Good News, the Gospel of our Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
There is a vast amount of rigorously obtained scientific evidence in existence now that indicates that the old earth "billions of years" paradigm is a myth and that evolution and abiogenesis are demonstrably impossible despite the trillions of dollars that have been spent trying to prove they are plausible. The constant propping up and reinforcement of these myths is the only reason that they still exist in popular culture and academia.
As further scientific evidence becomes known that refutes the "deep time and evolutionary" myths, new stories are dreamed up that attempt the explain away the inconvenient truths. I have observed this process happening over the past thirty years and don't expect the game plan of the devoutly religious evolutionary devotees to significantly change in the coming decades.
I sincerely hope and pray that young students studying science now will have the courage and intellect to see through the presently carefully performed charade to get this area of science back on track by conducting evidence based research rather than the unscientific dogma driven mythology that at its heart is really about rebellion against our Creator, (though most of evolution's devout adherents would not be consciously aware of that fact).
Windar12q, I pray that you will come to know our Creator who has known you even before you were born.
Burrawang
Burrawang,
Thanks for the references. Good stuff, I will have to spend some time grasping it all. No problem with the 6000 years for the age of the earth. I just know that some of the calculations for that proposed age were based on assumptions I am not willing to make.
Windar12Q, where did the energy come from? How was energy system arranged? Are you doing some experimentation in your research? What questions are you trying to answer? What are the "Facts" you have discovered? As to whether all living things are connected, that determination is dependent on what criteria you use. If you connect them by whether they are living or not, there is a connection. If you set the criteria at having a heart beat or not, they are not connected. If you say they all came from the same random beginning you have to provide information about that event. I do believe that all life is "connected" they were created by an intelligent designer. Jesus, the one that predicted his death and resurrection, commends the account in Genesis. Jesus is a good source according to the evidence presented in the scriptures and elsewhere. The shortfalls in scientific evidence convinces me that life can not be organized or initiated by random events. Actually, the scientific method requires you to disprove your hypothesis. If your hypothesis stands the active attempt to disprove it, then it has the potential of being true. The physical laws of thermodynamics disprove the idea that order arose from disorder on it's own. Statistical analysis of the proper arrangements for DNA stands at the very lowest levels shows that it is impossible at scientifically accepted levels of probability. God cannot be disproved. Some conditions and events in the appearance of life are only satisfied by an intelligent designer.
One of the problems I see with much of evolutionary speculation is that it is just that. A correlation is seen, and it is presented as fact without statistically significant attempts to disprove it. I have also seen evidence that things that don't fit the correlations are disregarded as "anomalies". When I was involved with soil science research this was not permitted. Only a stated probability could allow for the hypotheses to pass the attempt to disprove.
Also, forgive me for saying "If you accept the 6000 year" age of the earth. I should have written "If one accepts". That mistake got me into a difficulty in discussion with Burrawang. My apologies.