On the timescale of cosmic evolution, humans appeared at the "end", but on the Genesis timescale , humans appeared at the "beginning," as Jesus said in Matthew 19:4. Which do you believe is correct and why.
Hi All, I thoroughly recommend watching this strikingly revealing film: - 'Dismantled Evolution' -- ‘A Scientific Deconstruction of the Theory of Evolution’ There will be a FREE one-time weekend premiere of this movie that can only be viewed at anytime BETWEEN 3:00 PM on Friday, Oct 9 to 2:59 PM on Monday, Oct 12 (Australian AEDT) NOTE: Times for other countries are listed at the short Film Trailer link below; but in all countries it will be available to watch for free this weekend. A short Film Trailer is at: https://creation.com/dismantled-movieFrom the page at the link, the following text can be found: - A scientific deconstruction of evolution Education systems and the media have repeatedly told us that humans and all living creatures evolved from a single-celled organism through random copying errors in the DNA (called mutations) and the reproductive filter of natural selection. This allegedly occurred over billions of years through unguided natural processes. Furthermore, we are told that the fossil record leaves no doubt that mankind evolved from ape-like creatures. Famous atheists like Richard Dawkins and Bill Nye tell us that we need to face the facts—we’re nothing more than an organized assemblage of biomolecules: there is no ultimate basis for morality, no ultimate meaning to life, no free will, and no life after death; humans have no soul and we will never stand before God to give an account for our lives. As Dawkins says, “DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” But what if the story we’ve been told about our alleged evolutionary ancestry is wrong, and the latest findings from modern genetics effectively falsify it? Would you believe it? The documentary can only be viewed for free at the same link this weekend only. https://creation.com/dismantled-movie
Good evening, Windar12q. God has demonstrated Himself to me through His kindness toward me no matter how well I do at following His commands, and also through His faithfulness to my family and friends. Ultimately I think God can use anything that happens to demonstrate Himself. Right now I am considering how God might be using this coronavirus outbreak. Nobody near where I live has had a confirmed case, but all of the schools are closed and my classes will be online for an unspecified lenghth of time. Most of the activities in which I participate have also been cancelled, including a class mission trip that I have been looking forward to for years. What is the lesson that He wants to teach me, my family, America as a whole? I think it is one about trusting Him as the anchor when everything else turns upsidedown. If He has something different in mind for these next few months than what I had planned, it is totally within His right to do that. This makes me think of Proverbs 19:21, "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails", and another passage, Psalm 62:2 "Truly He is my rock and my salvation; He is my fortress, I will never be shaken".
Those were my not-really-the-demonstration-you-were-expecting thougts on what God is doing in my life right now. Jesus knows what you need to experience in order for you to put your trust in Him (what kind of demonstration you need), and I pray He will reveal His love to you in a special way.
Hello windar12q. To answer your question, I agree with part of the statement but not the whole. I use your statements as headings and describe my thoughts below.
"Different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to succeed."
This is actually a somewhat Biblical idea (though the Bible adds that all people are equally valuable regardless of intellect, see Galatians 3:28). In the Bible this applies to talents and skills that are unique to each person, not necessarily superior and inferior intelligence, but the idea that society needs variety to function is the same (1 Corinthians 12).
"This (differing levels of intellect) is why there are so many religions."
This is the part of your statement that isn't Biblical at all. So many religions exist because of the situation that exists in this world: Because we are made by God in His image we have souls that crave spiritual truth, but at the same time we are corrupted by sin and unable or unwilling to submit to the one true God. It is easy to see how a wide variety of religions would result. God is powerful enough the here force everyone to believe in Him, but He chooses to reveal Himself in the Bible and throughout personal experience and let us respond by accepting or rejecting Him. He wants our love to be genuine, not coerced.
I wish you well and pray that you will come to know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus.
It is unfortunate, but nevertheless it must be said that you are incorrectly accusing others of precisely the primary error that you continue to display throughout this forum & other forums relating to the broader creation/evolution debate on this site.
There are too many instances of this happening to simply just ignore it.
For simplicity, the most recent example of this is from your last post; quoting your statement in italics below: -
"I find it mystifying that someone can ignore the facts to get over their point of view, even when that view cannot be backed by concrete evidence, or indeed any evidence at all."
After reading this and other forums on this site, I have not been able to find much in the way of scientifically verifiable facts or evidence provided by you in support of the beliefs and clams you have made.
I sincerely hope that you're able to see this readily confirmed fact is indeed a fact.
Hi Windar12q, you may like to read an interesting article that discusses the origins debate with physicist Dr. Keith Wanser, B.A., M.A., Ph.D. is Professor of Physics at California State University, Fullerton: - https://creation.com/god-and-the-electron
You may also find enlightening some articles about other well known working physicists and their work at the following links: -
https://creation.com/d-russell-humphreys-cv about Dr. D.Russell Humphreys, who has published widely in secular journals, has numerous patents and has worked for Sandia National Laboratories (New Mexico) in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. In 1985, he began working with Sandia’s ‘Particle Beam Fusion Project’, and is currently working for the Institute for Creation Research where he holds the post of Associate Professor of physics.
https://creation.com/dr-jim-mason about Dr. Jim Mason, B.Sc. in Engineering Physics from Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada and a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics from McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada.
I hope that you will see from the above articles that there are real physicists that know that evolution is a false theory and the Bible contains the true history of the origins of the human family.
I think you will find that relates to transmission of photons not protons. It is about communications via an up-link channel used for transmitting data to a satellite and may be a method of improving communication networks, but be clear and understand that photons are a lot different to sub-atomic particles such as protons.
Hello burrawang, having gone over some of the letters, I noticed you think space travel will be limited to the moon and Mars only. If you look more closely at quantum entanglement you will see that protons can appear from nothing and can also disappear only to pop up in another place instantaneously. China have successfully sent a proton from Earth to the space station using this technique. If you have ever watched Star Trek you will get some idea where space travel will be going - it will be a case of 'Beam me up Scottie.' The future looks bright for space travel and global travel also. There are already quantum computers that are almost ready for the market. (Instantaneous connection.) Faster than the speed of light, which will be another illusion, because the quantum particles, though they appear to be interacting they aren't, they are just one particle.
It is the same way that I describe our emotions - each emotion appears has one when in fact it is two in one. Example - love and hate. It is the same emotion.
I did read your last post. It would require me to regard your word as authority which I do not. Your statements are not supported by scientific fact. If truth is left up to emotions, there can be no truth. If all emotions are positive, how can they teach us right and wrong? Where is the authority of one emotion over another? If emotions rule, how can their be objectivity? Facts are not your god; simple mathematics shows that life from non-life is statistically impossible. Facts would dictate that genetic mutations are not productive and that, as Burrawang stated genetic diversity is declining. Genetic manipulation to bring about desired traits actually reduces genetic diversity.
How do we weigh light? How much does heat weigh? If energy is mass then we should be able to weigh it. Windar12q, Why do you say evolution is a closed system? What closes it; what are the limits. You earlier mentioned standing outside the Universe; at what point can you know the limits to the universe so that you can look at it as a closed system. You say that God cannot be the source of biodiversity; but that is what a "God" is, he can do anything. Your god is evolution and science. Neither of them has the capability to do what ever "they" want because we know of limits that are certifiable. I believe very much in science, but not as a god; rather, a way of understanding some things about our universe. As Burrawang stated, the creation "speaks" to us about God. Biodiversity shows us that God is precise, appreciates beauty, is wise, and knows more that I certainly do. This is called "Natural Revelation". Special Revelation, on the other hand comes from the written Word. From the Word we receive revelation about God's invisible qualities, love, mercy, grace. Those who believe in God are delighted to investigate both Natural and Special revelation, not to mention historical evidence of God's work. Again, there are historical and eye witness accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection. This validates the words of the Old Testament in Jesus' own words. Drive to understand God's creation is not limited by faith in God as creator, it increases it. The Big Bang theory is more detrimental to scientific investigation. It attempts to explain things in ways that allow difficult or impossible things to occur. To do so, it violates scientific laws that can be demonstrated. Thus, true science is harmed and thinking is allowed to follow speculations about life and our physical world. Assuming that God does not exist introduces a bias that is not productive to the truth.
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?" Job 12:7-9
Hi Windar12q, I will try to address in blue text each of the points that you raised in your response.
Hi burrawang, I have been having the same technical trouble and have not been able to reply.
A bit strange that we both have experienced the same inability to post, yet we are on opposite sides of the planet; the site administrator advised to the effect that there were no known problems at their end but it would appear to be more widespread than that, has anyone else had difficulty posting on these forums?
When you say abiogenesis is demonstrably impossible, but so is God; so the answer still remains a mystery.
Encyclopaedia Britannica states, “Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from non-life more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were simple and gradually became increasingly complex.”
The Second Law of Thermodynamics alone falsifies Abiogenesis, without even considering the enormous quantity of well researched REAL evidence that also falsifies it. The killer blow to abiogenesis and evolution is the easily repeated experimentally proven FACT that ALL GENOMESare rapidly losing complex specified information from their genomes every generation. This FACT is the antithesis of evolution!
However my research is pointing to energy as the source of all things in the universe and that includes evolution.
How can energy be the source of all things? As the quantity of energy increases the quantity of entropy increases because they, i.e. energy and entropy are directly proportional to each other.
It is a proven fact that in QM, protons can appear from nothing, which takes me on to the entropy that you mention.
Well, actually, no.
Energy and matter are interchangeable and quantum mechanics physics has demonstrated that Protons can appear from what are thought to be non-material (mass less) energy fields but it has not been demonstrated that they appear from nothing as you have stated. That would be in the realm of metaphysics, not verifiable by QM or any other discipline of modern science.
Though science references back ground micro wave radiation as remnants from the Big Bang - with the discovery of how protons act, it is possible perhaps that the waves could be coming from a universe that is still expanding - the big bang could still be taking place.
Although it is widely thought by adherents to the big bang theory, it is most definitely not proven that the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is a remnant from the big bang.
Regarding expansion, the evidence that big-bangers cite is correct that we observe redshift in light coming from distant stars and galaxies that has been interpreted using the well known phenomenon in physics, the Doppler effect, in which wave energy is shifted to a longer or shorter wavelength because the light source is moving relative to the observer.
We also observe blueshift in some galaxies, that has been interpreted as those galaxies are coming towards us.
This phenomena in distant starlight was discovered by Edwin Hubble and published by him in 1929; he observed that there was a correlation with distance, the farther away the galaxy light source, the higher the redshift. If the redshift were caused by the Doppler effect, then it would appear that galaxies were receding at incredible speeds and the furthermost galaxies were receding faster than the closer ones.
Therefore, if you reverse the expansion, by theoretically going back in time to when the expansion logically must have commenced, it would appear according to the big-bang theory that there was a point where all space. time and matter of the universe were in the same place, a single point or singularity.
A Belgian priest named Abbe Georges-Henri Lemaitre reasoned that to escape the immense gravitational pull of the "singularity" the universe must have exploded into existence as we appear to see it today still expanding.
This however raised the prospect of the situation whereby all the laws of physics would break down in the supposed singularity and any explanation would have to appeal to forces beyond physics. That is why physicists today only talk about the big-bang AFTER the theorised big-bang explosion had already taken place, because at the pre-explosion point, it is beyond our knowledge of physics to understand, including QM, if this theory was in fact how we came to have the universe we have.
The modern scientific approach had been designed to explain the universe in terms of the natural, not the supernatural and modern science was and still is inadequate to explain the physics of a singularity. It has been postulated that the big-bang would have to have been a massive thermonuclear explosion that would have released huge amounts of heat energy throughout the whole universe.
Around 1965, two Americans Penzias and Wilson published their work and were awarded the Nobel Prize for their discovery of the CMBR. The CMBR is an observable phenomena but the big-bang theory is an attempt to explain some parts of what we observe in accordance with or within a naturalistic/materialist philosophical framework. It is possible that we may never know for sure what the CMBR is, but in the big picture, it really is not that important, though much song and dance is made about the CMBR by adherents to the big-bang claiming it as a proof of their theory; it may well turn out to be caused by some yet unknown phenomena; only time will tell.
There are many severe problems with the main big-bang theory that include: -
1.) The theory just does not work. The theorised primordial explosion would only produce an expanding cloud of gas that would not spontaneously reverse their expansion and collapse into stars, galaxies planets, asteroids etc.
2.) The theory lacks a credible and consistent mechanism. Big-bang theory is based on the laws of physics yet those laws cannot explain the important components of the model, e.g. there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of a singularity.
3.) Chemical evolution of life is clearly excluded by the evidence. The laws of chemistry preclude the supposed chemical evolutionary process from ever occurring.
4.) Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject. Science operates in the present by observation and experiment, it has no direct access to the past. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is the worldview in which the evidence is viewed and considered that will dictate the direction and results that are interpreted in accordance with the worldview or ruling paradigm.
It is a verifiable fact that there are many prominent astronomers, astrophysicist’s and cosmologists who think the big bang is a load of nonsense and I tend to agree with that opinion.
From your part of the globe, the late, brilliant world famous astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle who coined the name big-bang considered the big-bang theory was, (quoting him): -
“dull-as-ditchwater expansion which degrades itself adiabatically (i.e. without gain or loss of heat) until it is incapable of doing anything at all. The notion that galaxies form, to be followed by an active astronomical history, is an illusion. Nothing forms; the thing is dead as a doornail.”
Don't you see how your religion is blinding you from seeing past that book of yours.
I could say precisely the same about your belief that “energy is the source of all things”, you see it all depends on your worldview. This debate is not about the evidence, it is about worldviews, and ultimately it is about the condition of our hearts and our spiritual health; (not the heart beating in our chests but spiritually speaking, our hearts).
Your assertion of entropy is correct up to a point, but that does not mean the end of everything.
Well, if it was left to go for long enough, universal heat death would occur, and all work (in the physics sense) would cease to be possible, but I agree, though for a different reason; I believe that God will intervene well before the Second Law of Thermodynamics has completed its inexorable journey.
If you read my last post to ekrause1406 you will see how easy it is to mistake the work of God for something entirely different and entirely natural. If religion keeps on insisting that abiogenesis is the work of some divine being, then we are never going to solve this mystery; surely you must acknowledge this?
Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Despite the above Chapter 1 from Genesis being the truth that God has revealed to us, this description is the most rational, sane and scientifically logical account for how we came to be here discussing this topic! No other explanation that I have seen even comes close to the Biblical account of origins.
If our future lies beyond the horizon and on into space, surely, the secret of life would be of the most importance, because we would be going where no man has been before and without this knowledge to guide us. I can see no logic in trying to suppress the means that will help us to find an answer.
The furthest we are going to get regarding space travel is the Moon and maybe at a stretch Mars; I do not see any prospect in the future of travelling beyond those two orbs in our solar system; any ideas of such are over-simplified science fiction. Space is far too vast and inhospitable for human beings without even considering the enormous expense involved to even put a few people in space in a world where there is so much poverty, inequality and pain.
I wish you well burrawang.
Likewise with respect and concern, I wish you well windar12q.
PLEASE, for eternities sake; read the Books of The New Testament if you wish to discover truth, for it is truly there that you will find it.
Apologies for my absence from this forum, I encountered an unknown cause technical problem that prevented posting anything on this forum; it now appears to be accessible again, so I will just add the post below that I had initially drafted but was unable to post some weeks ago now.
Windar12q, the truth is that God exists, He is very real. I cannot empirically prove this fact to you, no-one but you can prove this profound truth to yourself.
If as you say you are honestly searching for the truth, then read the Bible starting with the New Testament and the truth will become known to you. Jesus is faithful, He knows all your strengths and faults, yet He still Loves you more than you could ever know.
Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Kirk is correct, everything is incessantly heading towards greater disorder, or an increase in entropy, order cannot come from disorder as is claimed in the evolutionary origin’s myth. Regardless of the evolutionary version you put your faith in, evolution of any form is demonstrably not possible. All forms of evolution are nothing more than variations of an elaborate, widely perpetrated hoax.
Regarding your references to Quantum Mechanics (QM); it is a fact that atomic and molecular orbital theory is supported by evidence and does provide logical scientific explanations to some physics questions that Newtonian physics cannot answer, but, it is many bridges too far to invoke entanglement and QM as an explanation for biological evolution. Furthermore, energy continually works towards greater entropy, the greater the energy, the greater the entropy; an obvious simple example is the sun, it is consuming its fuel and emitting energy that ultimately causes greater disorder in the universe; the sun will eventually run out of fuel and will go cold, no further emissions of energy will occur, as far as we presently know, everything in the universe is heading towards this same state.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that: -
· A.) order ultimately deteriorates towards disorder
· B.)information deteriorates, i.e. complex information is losing complexity
· C.) the entropy of the universe is ultimately always increasing (entropy is a measure of disorder)
· D.)usable energy that can perform work is constantly decreasing, eventually to zero.
Regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Dr John Ross of Harvard University states: -
“… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.”
Our best scientific endeavours show us that the universe is like an old clockwork clock that is rapidly running down which logically then indicates that it was more wound up in the past. The direct implications of this fact alone (if understood in its entirety) utterly demolishes evolution to be a falsified theory!
Yet another profound truth that I cannot prove empirically to you, but is fact nonetheless, is that God presently sustains the universe; if He didn’t, we wouldn’t be here, and the universe would cease to exist.
Colossians 1: 9-23
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,
10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The terrible consequences of sin, (i.e. rebellion against God); sets all of us on a path that ultimately leads to destruction and the second death. It is because of the fact that we all have sinned and must pay the penalty of death incurred by our sins that we all need the gift of salvation from God, paid by God Himself on the cross about 2,000 years ago which is the Good News, the Gospel of our Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
There is a vast amount of rigorously obtained scientific evidence in existence now that indicates that the old earth "billions of years" paradigm is a myth and that evolution and abiogenesis are demonstrably impossible despite the trillions of dollars that have been spent trying to prove they are plausible. The constant propping up and reinforcement of these myths is the only reason that they still exist in popular culture and academia.
As further scientific evidence becomes known that refutes the "deep time and evolutionary" myths, new stories are dreamed up that attempt the explain away the inconvenient truths. I have observed this process happening over the past thirty years and don't expect the game plan of the devoutly religious evolutionary devotees to significantly change in the coming decades.
I sincerely hope and pray that young students studying science now will have the courage and intellect to see through the presently carefully performed charade to get this area of science back on track by conducting evidence based research rather than the unscientific dogma driven mythology that at its heart is really about rebellion against our Creator, (though most of evolution's devout adherents would not be consciously aware of that fact).
Windar12q, I pray that you will come to know our Creator who has known you even before you were born.
Thanks for the references. Good stuff, I will have to spend some time grasping it all. No problem with the 6000 years for the age of the earth. I just know that some of the calculations for that proposed age were based on assumptions I am not willing to make.
Windar12Q, where did the energy come from? How was energy system arranged? Are you doing some experimentation in your research? What questions are you trying to answer? What are the "Facts" you have discovered? As to whether all living things are connected, that determination is dependent on what criteria you use. If you connect them by whether they are living or not, there is a connection. If you set the criteria at having a heart beat or not, they are not connected. If you say they all came from the same random beginning you have to provide information about that event. I do believe that all life is "connected" they were created by an intelligent designer. Jesus, the one that predicted his death and resurrection, commends the account in Genesis. Jesus is a good source according to the evidence presented in the scriptures and elsewhere. The shortfalls in scientific evidence convinces me that life can not be organized or initiated by random events. Actually, the scientific method requires you to disprove your hypothesis. If your hypothesis stands the active attempt to disprove it, then it has the potential of being true. The physical laws of thermodynamics disprove the idea that order arose from disorder on it's own. Statistical analysis of the proper arrangements for DNA stands at the very lowest levels shows that it is impossible at scientifically accepted levels of probability. God cannot be disproved. Some conditions and events in the appearance of life are only satisfied by an intelligent designer.
One of the problems I see with much of evolutionary speculation is that it is just that. A correlation is seen, and it is presented as fact without statistically significant attempts to disprove it. I have also seen evidence that things that don't fit the correlations are disregarded as "anomalies". When I was involved with soil science research this was not permitted. Only a stated probability could allow for the hypotheses to pass the attempt to disprove.
Also, forgive me for saying "If you accept the 6000 year" age of the earth. I should have written "If one accepts". That mistake got me into a difficulty in discussion with Burrawang. My apologies.
What is your version of evolution called? What kind of research are you doing with regard to it? I am not sure that the bible says the earth is 6,000 years old. I think some have estimated that it say the earth is 6,000 years old. Geneology estimates are not precise. there is evidence that does indicate less than 10,000 years.
If the earth is young it indicates that evolutIion over a long period of time did not occur. If evolution is not the answer we look for another. The Chronology of the Bible is one possible answer and it appears from the evidence from the young earth argument that the Bible is correct. The supernatural miracles that Jesus did are evidence that Jesus is God.
Windar12q, what basis would you accept as proof of God. The scriptures are not authoritative for you. Biology and other sciences are not authoritative for you. What would be convincing?
Hi windar12q, I must admit that I do not know much about your ‘version’ of evolution but I do know that whatever the ‘version’ there is one thing that is common to all, and that is enormous passages of time!
It is no coincidence that western academia moved from their belief in the great global flood as responsible for the deposition of the majority of earths geological formations and the clear and accurate timeframe set out in the Bible to the ‘deep time’ billions of years paradigm at precisely the same period when Darwin published his, “On the origin of species” work in the 1850’s.
Whether you realise it or not, your version of evolution is still utterly dependent upon the passage of billions of years for it to occur, if it was actually possible, which I am sorry to say to you, it demonstrably and clearly isn’t.
The body of evidence that indicates that the earth is very young is steadily mounting. The move by many evolutionary geologists (at the forefront of their discipline), is towards catastrophic processes, again this is what Bible believing scientists have been demonstrably stating for more than half a century now.
The recent change in the evolutionary geology paradigm was in no small way precipitated by the Mount St Helens eruption in 1980 that saw thousands of fine horizontal sedimentary layers deposited that are now solid sedimentary rock. Prior to that event the layers were interpreted as being laid down over millions of years, but thousands of eye witnesses saw the event at close range when mud flows caused by high speed torrents of water from a ruptured lake near the eruption site laid down the thousands of sedimentary layers in a matter of hours in one afternoon.
You have again stated, “that I have to prove that God exists” but don’t you see that because the world is very young and there simply has not been enough time for evolution to occur, if it were even possible, the implication is that because exquisitely and beautifully designed life is present on this planet in abundant diversity; and the very fact that the Bible tells us that creation occurred about 6,000 years ago out of nothing; the only rational explanation is that it was all created by an incomprehensibly brilliant mastermind who has not left us in the dark but has revealed His great plan to us in the Bible.
I pray that you your eyes are opened and that you are able to comprehend the logic and profound truth in this and come to see the obvious connections.
The Bible tells us this in Romans 1:20: -
For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is only evolution that desperately needs the earth to be billions of years old to make the theory plausible; even if we accepted the presumed billions of years old age paradigm, and even if we granted that the first cell somehow came into existence, and also granted that evolution was possible, there still has not been anywhere near enough time (in the evolutionary story line) for the imagined evolution to occur from the first living cell to man. I cannot think of any other discipline of science that depends upon an old earth (billions and billions of years), for its very believability and existence.
Windar12q, it is fact that in the right conditions coal can form in less than one year actually in as little as three months.
It is a fact mineralisation of organic structures can and often does occur within decades in the right environment.
It is fact that in the right conditions fossils can form in less than one year. See, "Fossils in a day" by Ron Neller at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/fossils-in-a-day
I cannot find any real or solid evidence that can be confirmed or definitively verified where a belief in evolution has improved any field of science, and in fact it has hindered progress. In medical science, for example, belief in the evolutionary inspired ideas of junk DNA and vestigial organs has unnecessarily complicated progress in medical science.
Thankfully, both the junk DNA and vestigial organs arguments are now being retracted because it is becoming well known that DNA once thought to be junk left over from imagined evolutionary progress does in fact perform vital functions and is not junk at all and the list of vestigial organs has shrunk to be almost non-existent, it’s no surprise that Bible believing scientists have been stating this fact for decades now, so it’s about time that evolutionists caught up. By the way both junk DNA and vestigial organs were widely used as propaganda to support evolution, not that long ago either, I can remember being bashed over the head numerous times by rabid evolutionists using these two ‘proofs’ of evolution!
I like this revealing quote by: - Dr. Ronald West (Kansas State Univ.) “Paleontology and Uniformitarianism” Compass45:216, as far back as May 1968 and nothing has changed since then!
“Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so, we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.”
Kirk, many thanks for your informative and soundly reasoned arguments in defence of the hope that is within us.
On Tuesday I was shown a Native American axe, or it may have been a hammer or club, made of stone, that had a portion of the material used to attach it to a handle. The material seemed to be leather, but it was fossilized. Kind of stunning to think about. In the same area there were buttons from a military uniform, it seemed to be brass. Also found it that area was a small rock mortar and pestle certainly not big enough to grind groceries, but possibly medicines or paint and dye. Here in North Dakota we have a particular kind of flint that has been found far and wide in areas of the United States where the flint does not occur naturally. I believe I read that all the examples from places far from this area were artifacts, things already made from the flint, not unworked raw material. Some jest that it was North Dakota's first export commodity. I was looking for flint to learn to make stone tools.
Hi windar12q, it is true that the Bible is a book, but it is a book like no other. The Bible is the oldest history book in the world and is historically accurate.
Archaeological discoveries confirm the accuracy of the Bible. The Bible is most certainly not just a book.
Did you actually read the article titled, “ATP synthase: majestic molecular machine made by a mastermind” or look at the computer graphic videos at Harvard Universities Biovisions website?
If you did read and view them then it would appear that you do not comprehend the profound implications that arise from the existence of, and the supreme efficiency of the ATP synthase machinery.
To simply brush those profound implications aside as you have done and also with regard to the source of information written on DNA by claiming that energy and quantum entanglement somehow explain their existence speaks volumes.
Although evolution has been demonstrated to be an impossibility, it is still being taught around the world in universities, schools and public media. There is a worldwide ground swell growing that will eventually overturn the disproven Darwinian paradigm, but it will no doubt only happen after the professors and lecturers presently promoting evolution leave academia.
The young generation being taught evolution now are doing so in an environment where: -
1.) the central evolution theory is no longer on its pedestal as
2.) more and more sound evidence is widely known that exposes the evolution myth for what it is.
It is these two facts that will eventually lead to full rejection of the theory.
This particular forum was meant to be about, ”A few thousand not billions of years since creation.”
With that in mind I would like to get this forum back on track about the large body of rigorously obtained evidence that points to a young earth and universe in earth timescale terms.
In biology, one of the most damming pieces of evidence for ‘deep time’ and belief in evolution is the incessant accumulation of mutations that are steadily destroying the complex specified information written on DNA.
There is simply no way to explain this fact away!
From what I have read about this matter, it seems that ardent evolutionists just want it to go away, and try ignoring the fact of the matter.
It is my experience that atheist evolutionists simply won’t engage or even consider the obvious implication that if all lifeforms DNA is steadily degrading, (that is now referred to as Genetic Entropy), then in the past, when this proven fact is extrapolated back in time, the genome information written on the DNA had far greater specified complexity. This fact is perfectly consistent with Adam and Eve being created by God who made their physical bodies to live eternally. Interestingly, this fact is also the antithesis of evolution!
The Biblical history recorded in Genesis, allows us to understand that it was only after the fall (when Adam and Eve disobeyed God) that the degradation of the genome commenced.
It is going to become increasingly difficult for evolutionists to continue belief in evolution as more and more rigorously obtained and readily repeatable evidence is published.
The religious ideological nature of the devout followers of evolution will no doubt drive some to attempt to stall the acceptance of the sound evidence that refutes the theory, but I am certain that the truth will become known in the end, i.e. evolution is an unscientific myth.
Windar12q, people do evil and abhorrent things all over the world every day but you appear unable to understand that it is people with free will that have made the decision to do the evil. The cause is people and most definitely not God.
Attempts are often made to direct blame for these evil actions on the Bible in a thinly veiled rebellion against God and Christians. As Ekruse1406 has correctly stated, the truth about the African atrocities is that poverty, illiteracy, manipulation and superstition are the drivers for that evil.
Windar12q, you keep continually demanding proof that God exists.
I could just as easily ask you to demonstrate evolution, but there would be no point because evolution has been scientifically falsified as a disproven theory.
There is absolutely zero that you could present that would demonstrate evolution; not even one tiny thing!
I honestly expect that no matter what evidence is presented to you that points to the existence of God, it will be rejected 'out of hand' no matter what.
That said, I do hope and pray that you will seriously ponder the profound implications that have arisen from the study of micro-biology.
From extensive research over past decades in numerous disciplines at hundreds and likely thousands of institutions around the world we now have at our fingertips enormous quantities of detailed information about the most profound irreducibly complex, brilliantly designed structures and processes. We have already mentioned deoxyribonucleic acid DNA that encodes the blueprint plans for the building, maintenance and operation of life so we will park that for now and have a look at one of the nano-machines that keeps us alive every second of our lives.
When I first discovered that every single cell of the many trillions of cells in your body has numerous adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthase electric motors in the mitochondrial membrane spinning at somewhere around 10,000 revolutions per minute, I was absolutely stunned, surprised just doesn’t cover it. Man made electric motors run on a flow of electrons but these tiny motors run on a flow of protons and revolve in the opposite direction to the large and clumsy inefficient man-made motors. Every revolution produces three molecules of ATP and each and everyday we produce over half our body weight of ATP that keeps us alive.
If you really wish to see what I would describe as very strong evidence that God exists or you would like to know more about the ATP synthase motor, take a look at the article titled: - “ATP synthase: majestic molecular machine made by a mastermind” by Brian Thomas that can be found at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/atp-synthase
I know that you will most likely have a problem with my statement, “very strong evidence that God exists” but if you understand the science and if you know a thing or two about probability theory and if you have a reasonable grasp of chemistry and physics and lastly know a thing or two about mechanics and electrical engineering then you will know with a certainty that the only cogent explanation for the existence and ongoing operation of these tiny electric motors is that they were made by God. The adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthase electric motors design and efficiency far, far, far surpasses anything that has been made by mankind. What you are failing to comprehend is that the construction of trillions of these nano machines in every person, or ant or blade of grass or tree or horse or mosquito is right down at the molecular level. In simple terms the brilliant intelligence that designed these machines has the knowledge and capability to manipulate atoms and molecules around into the most efficient electric motors known to exist in the universe.
If you want to see a few simulations of the inner life of the cell, you could take a good look at the computer graphics at Biovisions at http://biovisions.mcb.harvard.edu/ The inner life series is worth a watch of the video animation just to get a tiny glimpse of the trillions of things going on inside every cell in our bodies, ALL the time.
Hi All, I thoroughly recommend watching this strikingly revealing film: - 'Dismantled Evolution' -- ‘A Scientific Deconstruction of the Theory of Evolution’ There will be a FREE one-time weekend premiere of this movie that can only be viewed at anytime BETWEEN 3:00 PM on Friday, Oct 9 to 2:59 PM on Monday, Oct 12 (Australian AEDT) NOTE: Times for other countries are listed at the short Film Trailer link below; but in all countries it will be available to watch for free this weekend. A short Film Trailer is at: https://creation.com/dismantled-movie From the page at the link, the following text can be found: - A scientific deconstruction of evolution Education systems and the media have repeatedly told us that humans and all living creatures evolved from a single-celled organism through random copying errors in the DNA (called mutations) and the reproductive filter of natural selection. This allegedly occurred over billions of years through unguided natural processes. Furthermore, we are told that the fossil record leaves no doubt that mankind evolved from ape-like creatures. Famous atheists like Richard Dawkins and Bill Nye tell us that we need to face the facts—we’re nothing more than an organized assemblage of biomolecules: there is no ultimate basis for morality, no ultimate meaning to life, no free will, and no life after death; humans have no soul and we will never stand before God to give an account for our lives. As Dawkins says, “DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” But what if the story we’ve been told about our alleged evolutionary ancestry is wrong, and the latest findings from modern genetics effectively falsify it? Would you believe it? The documentary can only be viewed for free at the same link this weekend only. https://creation.com/dismantled-movie
Good evening, Windar12q. God has demonstrated Himself to me through His kindness toward me no matter how well I do at following His commands, and also through His faithfulness to my family and friends. Ultimately I think God can use anything that happens to demonstrate Himself. Right now I am considering how God might be using this coronavirus outbreak. Nobody near where I live has had a confirmed case, but all of the schools are closed and my classes will be online for an unspecified lenghth of time. Most of the activities in which I participate have also been cancelled, including a class mission trip that I have been looking forward to for years. What is the lesson that He wants to teach me, my family, America as a whole? I think it is one about trusting Him as the anchor when everything else turns upsidedown. If He has something different in mind for these next few months than what I had planned, it is totally within His right to do that. This makes me think of Proverbs 19:21, "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails", and another passage, Psalm 62:2 "Truly He is my rock and my salvation; He is my fortress, I will never be shaken".
Those were my not-really-the-demonstration-you-were-expecting thougts on what God is doing in my life right now. Jesus knows what you need to experience in order for you to put your trust in Him (what kind of demonstration you need), and I pray He will reveal His love to you in a special way.
Hello windar12q. To answer your question, I agree with part of the statement but not the whole. I use your statements as headings and describe my thoughts below.
"Different levels of intellect are needed for an intelligent species to succeed."
This is actually a somewhat Biblical idea (though the Bible adds that all people are equally valuable regardless of intellect, see Galatians 3:28). In the Bible this applies to talents and skills that are unique to each person, not necessarily superior and inferior intelligence, but the idea that society needs variety to function is the same (1 Corinthians 12).
"This (differing levels of intellect) is why there are so many religions."
This is the part of your statement that isn't Biblical at all. So many religions exist because of the situation that exists in this world: Because we are made by God in His image we have souls that crave spiritual truth, but at the same time we are corrupted by sin and unable or unwilling to submit to the one true God. It is easy to see how a wide variety of religions would result. God is powerful enough the here force everyone to believe in Him, but He chooses to reveal Himself in the Bible and throughout personal experience and let us respond by accepting or rejecting Him. He wants our love to be genuine, not coerced.
Good night.
windar12q,
I wish you well and pray that you will come to know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus.
It is unfortunate, but nevertheless it must be said that you are incorrectly accusing others of precisely the primary error that you continue to display throughout this forum & other forums relating to the broader creation/evolution debate on this site.
There are too many instances of this happening to simply just ignore it.
For simplicity, the most recent example of this is from your last post; quoting your statement in italics below: -
"I find it mystifying that someone can ignore the facts to get over their point of view, even when that view cannot be backed by concrete evidence, or indeed any evidence at all."
After reading this and other forums on this site, I have not been able to find much in the way of scientifically verifiable facts or evidence provided by you in support of the beliefs and clams you have made.
I sincerely hope that you're able to see this readily confirmed fact is indeed a fact.
Regards,
Burrawang
Hi Windar12q, you may like to read an interesting article that discusses the origins debate with physicist Dr. Keith Wanser, B.A., M.A., Ph.D. is Professor of Physics at California State University, Fullerton: - https://creation.com/god-and-the-electron
You may also find enlightening some articles about other well known working physicists and their work at the following links: -
https://creation.com/d-russell-humphreys-cv about Dr. D.Russell Humphreys, who has published widely in secular journals, has numerous patents and has worked for Sandia National Laboratories (New Mexico) in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. In 1985, he began working with Sandia’s ‘Particle Beam Fusion Project’, and is currently working for the Institute for Creation Research where he holds the post of Associate Professor of physics.
https://creation.com/dr-jim-mason about Dr. Jim Mason, B.Sc. in Engineering Physics from Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada and a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics from McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada.
https://creation.com/brandon-vd-interview about Dr. Brandon van der Ventel, a nuclear physicist who works on relativistic descriptions of nuclear reactions.
You may also find interesting, a series of physics articles at https://creation.com/topics/physics
I hope that you will see from the above articles that there are real physicists that know that evolution is a false theory and the Bible contains the true history of the origins of the human family.
I think you will find that relates to transmission of photons not protons. It is about communications via an up-link channel used for transmitting data to a satellite and may be a method of improving communication networks, but be clear and understand that photons are a lot different to sub-atomic particles such as protons.
Hello burrawang, having gone over some of the letters, I noticed you think space travel will be limited to the moon and Mars only. If you look more closely at quantum entanglement you will see that protons can appear from nothing and can also disappear only to pop up in another place instantaneously. China have successfully sent a proton from Earth to the space station using this technique. If you have ever watched Star Trek you will get some idea where space travel will be going - it will be a case of 'Beam me up Scottie.' The future looks bright for space travel and global travel also. There are already quantum computers that are almost ready for the market. (Instantaneous connection.) Faster than the speed of light, which will be another illusion, because the quantum particles, though they appear to be interacting they aren't, they are just one particle.
It is the same way that I describe our emotions - each emotion appears has one when in fact it is two in one. Example - love and hate. It is the same emotion.
Keep well
I did read your last post. It would require me to regard your word as authority which I do not. Your statements are not supported by scientific fact. If truth is left up to emotions, there can be no truth. If all emotions are positive, how can they teach us right and wrong? Where is the authority of one emotion over another? If emotions rule, how can their be objectivity? Facts are not your god; simple mathematics shows that life from non-life is statistically impossible. Facts would dictate that genetic mutations are not productive and that, as Burrawang stated genetic diversity is declining. Genetic manipulation to bring about desired traits actually reduces genetic diversity.
How do we weigh light? How much does heat weigh? If energy is mass then we should be able to weigh it. Windar12q, Why do you say evolution is a closed system? What closes it; what are the limits. You earlier mentioned standing outside the Universe; at what point can you know the limits to the universe so that you can look at it as a closed system. You say that God cannot be the source of biodiversity; but that is what a "God" is, he can do anything. Your god is evolution and science. Neither of them has the capability to do what ever "they" want because we know of limits that are certifiable. I believe very much in science, but not as a god; rather, a way of understanding some things about our universe. As Burrawang stated, the creation "speaks" to us about God. Biodiversity shows us that God is precise, appreciates beauty, is wise, and knows more that I certainly do. This is called "Natural Revelation". Special Revelation, on the other hand comes from the written Word. From the Word we receive revelation about God's invisible qualities, love, mercy, grace. Those who believe in God are delighted to investigate both Natural and Special revelation, not to mention historical evidence of God's work. Again, there are historical and eye witness accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection. This validates the words of the Old Testament in Jesus' own words. Drive to understand God's creation is not limited by faith in God as creator, it increases it. The Big Bang theory is more detrimental to scientific investigation. It attempts to explain things in ways that allow difficult or impossible things to occur. To do so, it violates scientific laws that can be demonstrated. Thus, true science is harmed and thinking is allowed to follow speculations about life and our physical world. Assuming that God does not exist introduces a bias that is not productive to the truth.
Kirk
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?" Job 12:7-9
Hi Windar12q, I will try to address in blue text each of the points that you raised in your response.
Hi burrawang, I have been having the same technical trouble and have not been able to reply.
A bit strange that we both have experienced the same inability to post, yet we are on opposite sides of the planet; the site administrator advised to the effect that there were no known problems at their end but it would appear to be more widespread than that, has anyone else had difficulty posting on these forums?
When you say abiogenesis is demonstrably impossible, but so is God; so the answer still remains a mystery.
Encyclopaedia Britannica states, “Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from non-life more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were simple and gradually became increasingly complex.”
The Second Law of Thermodynamics alone falsifies Abiogenesis, without even considering the enormous quantity of well researched REAL evidence that also falsifies it. The killer blow to abiogenesis and evolution is the easily repeated experimentally proven FACT that ALL GENOMES are rapidly losing complex specified information from their genomes every generation. This FACT is the antithesis of evolution!
However my research is pointing to energy as the source of all things in the universe and that includes evolution.
How can energy be the source of all things? As the quantity of energy increases the quantity of entropy increases because they, i.e. energy and entropy are directly proportional to each other.
It is a proven fact that in QM, protons can appear from nothing, which takes me on to the entropy that you mention.
Well, actually, no.
Energy and matter are interchangeable and quantum mechanics physics has demonstrated that Protons can appear from what are thought to be non-material (mass less) energy fields but it has not been demonstrated that they appear from nothing as you have stated. That would be in the realm of metaphysics, not verifiable by QM or any other discipline of modern science.
Though science references back ground micro wave radiation as remnants from the Big Bang - with the discovery of how protons act, it is possible perhaps that the waves could be coming from a universe that is still expanding - the big bang could still be taking place.
Although it is widely thought by adherents to the big bang theory, it is most definitely not proven that the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is a remnant from the big bang.
Regarding expansion, the evidence that big-bangers cite is correct that we observe redshift in light coming from distant stars and galaxies that has been interpreted using the well known phenomenon in physics, the Doppler effect, in which wave energy is shifted to a longer or shorter wavelength because the light source is moving relative to the observer.
We also observe blueshift in some galaxies, that has been interpreted as those galaxies are coming towards us.
This phenomena in distant starlight was discovered by Edwin Hubble and published by him in 1929; he observed that there was a correlation with distance, the farther away the galaxy light source, the higher the redshift. If the redshift were caused by the Doppler effect, then it would appear that galaxies were receding at incredible speeds and the furthermost galaxies were receding faster than the closer ones.
Therefore, if you reverse the expansion, by theoretically going back in time to when the expansion logically must have commenced, it would appear according to the big-bang theory that there was a point where all space. time and matter of the universe were in the same place, a single point or singularity.
A Belgian priest named Abbe Georges-Henri Lemaitre reasoned that to escape the immense gravitational pull of the "singularity" the universe must have exploded into existence as we appear to see it today still expanding.
This however raised the prospect of the situation whereby all the laws of physics would break down in the supposed singularity and any explanation would have to appeal to forces beyond physics. That is why physicists today only talk about the big-bang AFTER the theorised big-bang explosion had already taken place, because at the pre-explosion point, it is beyond our knowledge of physics to understand, including QM, if this theory was in fact how we came to have the universe we have.
The modern scientific approach had been designed to explain the universe in terms of the natural, not the supernatural and modern science was and still is inadequate to explain the physics of a singularity. It has been postulated that the big-bang would have to have been a massive thermonuclear explosion that would have released huge amounts of heat energy throughout the whole universe.
Around 1965, two Americans Penzias and Wilson published their work and were awarded the Nobel Prize for their discovery of the CMBR. The CMBR is an observable phenomena but the big-bang theory is an attempt to explain some parts of what we observe in accordance with or within a naturalistic/materialist philosophical framework. It is possible that we may never know for sure what the CMBR is, but in the big picture, it really is not that important, though much song and dance is made about the CMBR by adherents to the big-bang claiming it as a proof of their theory; it may well turn out to be caused by some yet unknown phenomena; only time will tell.
There are many severe problems with the main big-bang theory that include: -
1.) The theory just does not work. The theorised primordial explosion would only produce an expanding cloud of gas that would not spontaneously reverse their expansion and collapse into stars, galaxies planets, asteroids etc.
2.) The theory lacks a credible and consistent mechanism. Big-bang theory is based on the laws of physics yet those laws cannot explain the important components of the model, e.g. there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of a singularity.
3.) Chemical evolution of life is clearly excluded by the evidence. The laws of chemistry preclude the supposed chemical evolutionary process from ever occurring.
4.) Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject. Science operates in the present by observation and experiment, it has no direct access to the past. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is the worldview in which the evidence is viewed and considered that will dictate the direction and results that are interpreted in accordance with the worldview or ruling paradigm.
It is a verifiable fact that there are many prominent astronomers, astrophysicist’s and cosmologists who think the big bang is a load of nonsense and I tend to agree with that opinion.
From your part of the globe, the late, brilliant world famous astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle who coined the name big-bang considered the big-bang theory was, (quoting him): -
“dull-as-ditchwater expansion which degrades itself adiabatically (i.e. without gain or loss of heat) until it is incapable of doing anything at all. The notion that galaxies form, to be followed by an active astronomical history, is an illusion. Nothing forms; the thing is dead as a doornail.”
Don't you see how your religion is blinding you from seeing past that book of yours.
I could say precisely the same about your belief that “energy is the source of all things”, you see it all depends on your worldview. This debate is not about the evidence, it is about worldviews, and ultimately it is about the condition of our hearts and our spiritual health; (not the heart beating in our chests but spiritually speaking, our hearts).
Your assertion of entropy is correct up to a point, but that does not mean the end of everything.
Well, if it was left to go for long enough, universal heat death would occur, and all work (in the physics sense) would cease to be possible, but I agree, though for a different reason; I believe that God will intervene well before the Second Law of Thermodynamics has completed its inexorable journey.
If you read my last post to ekrause1406 you will see how easy it is to mistake the work of God for something entirely different and entirely natural. If religion keeps on insisting that abiogenesis is the work of some divine being, then we are never going to solve this mystery; surely you must acknowledge this?
Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Despite the above Chapter 1 from Genesis being the truth that God has revealed to us, this description is the most rational, sane and scientifically logical account for how we came to be here discussing this topic! No other explanation that I have seen even comes close to the Biblical account of origins.
If our future lies beyond the horizon and on into space, surely, the secret of life would be of the most importance, because we would be going where no man has been before and without this knowledge to guide us. I can see no logic in trying to suppress the means that will help us to find an answer.
The furthest we are going to get regarding space travel is the Moon and maybe at a stretch Mars; I do not see any prospect in the future of travelling beyond those two orbs in our solar system; any ideas of such are over-simplified science fiction. Space is far too vast and inhospitable for human beings without even considering the enormous expense involved to even put a few people in space in a world where there is so much poverty, inequality and pain.
I wish you well burrawang.
Likewise with respect and concern, I wish you well windar12q.
PLEASE, for eternities sake; read the Books of The New Testament if you wish to discover truth, for it is truly there that you will find it.
Regards,
B
Apologies for my absence from this forum, I encountered an unknown cause technical problem that prevented posting anything on this forum; it now appears to be accessible again, so I will just add the post below that I had initially drafted but was unable to post some weeks ago now.
Windar12q, the truth is that God exists, He is very real. I cannot empirically prove this fact to you, no-one but you can prove this profound truth to yourself.
If as you say you are honestly searching for the truth, then read the Bible starting with the New Testament and the truth will become known to you. Jesus is faithful, He knows all your strengths and faults, yet He still Loves you more than you could ever know.
Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Kirk is correct, everything is incessantly heading towards greater disorder, or an increase in entropy, order cannot come from disorder as is claimed in the evolutionary origin’s myth. Regardless of the evolutionary version you put your faith in, evolution of any form is demonstrably not possible. All forms of evolution are nothing more than variations of an elaborate, widely perpetrated hoax.
Regarding your references to Quantum Mechanics (QM); it is a fact that atomic and molecular orbital theory is supported by evidence and does provide logical scientific explanations to some physics questions that Newtonian physics cannot answer, but, it is many bridges too far to invoke entanglement and QM as an explanation for biological evolution. Furthermore, energy continually works towards greater entropy, the greater the energy, the greater the entropy; an obvious simple example is the sun, it is consuming its fuel and emitting energy that ultimately causes greater disorder in the universe; the sun will eventually run out of fuel and will go cold, no further emissions of energy will occur, as far as we presently know, everything in the universe is heading towards this same state.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that: -
· A.) order ultimately deteriorates towards disorder
· B.) information deteriorates, i.e. complex information is losing complexity
· C.) the entropy of the universe is ultimately always increasing (entropy is a measure of disorder)
· D.) usable energy that can perform work is constantly decreasing, eventually to zero.
Regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Dr John Ross of Harvard University states: -
“… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.”
Our best scientific endeavours show us that the universe is like an old clockwork clock that is rapidly running down which logically then indicates that it was more wound up in the past. The direct implications of this fact alone (if understood in its entirety) utterly demolishes evolution to be a falsified theory!
Yet another profound truth that I cannot prove empirically to you, but is fact nonetheless, is that God presently sustains the universe; if He didn’t, we wouldn’t be here, and the universe would cease to exist.
Colossians 1: 9-23
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,
10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The terrible consequences of sin, (i.e. rebellion against God); sets all of us on a path that ultimately leads to destruction and the second death. It is because of the fact that we all have sinned and must pay the penalty of death incurred by our sins that we all need the gift of salvation from God, paid by God Himself on the cross about 2,000 years ago which is the Good News, the Gospel of our Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
There is a vast amount of rigorously obtained scientific evidence in existence now that indicates that the old earth "billions of years" paradigm is a myth and that evolution and abiogenesis are demonstrably impossible despite the trillions of dollars that have been spent trying to prove they are plausible. The constant propping up and reinforcement of these myths is the only reason that they still exist in popular culture and academia.
As further scientific evidence becomes known that refutes the "deep time and evolutionary" myths, new stories are dreamed up that attempt the explain away the inconvenient truths. I have observed this process happening over the past thirty years and don't expect the game plan of the devoutly religious evolutionary devotees to significantly change in the coming decades.
I sincerely hope and pray that young students studying science now will have the courage and intellect to see through the presently carefully performed charade to get this area of science back on track by conducting evidence based research rather than the unscientific dogma driven mythology that at its heart is really about rebellion against our Creator, (though most of evolution's devout adherents would not be consciously aware of that fact).
Windar12q, I pray that you will come to know our Creator who has known you even before you were born.
Burrawang
Burrawang,
Thanks for the references. Good stuff, I will have to spend some time grasping it all. No problem with the 6000 years for the age of the earth. I just know that some of the calculations for that proposed age were based on assumptions I am not willing to make.
Windar12Q, where did the energy come from? How was energy system arranged? Are you doing some experimentation in your research? What questions are you trying to answer? What are the "Facts" you have discovered? As to whether all living things are connected, that determination is dependent on what criteria you use. If you connect them by whether they are living or not, there is a connection. If you set the criteria at having a heart beat or not, they are not connected. If you say they all came from the same random beginning you have to provide information about that event. I do believe that all life is "connected" they were created by an intelligent designer. Jesus, the one that predicted his death and resurrection, commends the account in Genesis. Jesus is a good source according to the evidence presented in the scriptures and elsewhere. The shortfalls in scientific evidence convinces me that life can not be organized or initiated by random events. Actually, the scientific method requires you to disprove your hypothesis. If your hypothesis stands the active attempt to disprove it, then it has the potential of being true. The physical laws of thermodynamics disprove the idea that order arose from disorder on it's own. Statistical analysis of the proper arrangements for DNA stands at the very lowest levels shows that it is impossible at scientifically accepted levels of probability. God cannot be disproved. Some conditions and events in the appearance of life are only satisfied by an intelligent designer.
One of the problems I see with much of evolutionary speculation is that it is just that. A correlation is seen, and it is presented as fact without statistically significant attempts to disprove it. I have also seen evidence that things that don't fit the correlations are disregarded as "anomalies". When I was involved with soil science research this was not permitted. Only a stated probability could allow for the hypotheses to pass the attempt to disprove.
Also, forgive me for saying "If you accept the 6000 year" age of the earth. I should have written "If one accepts". That mistake got me into a difficulty in discussion with Burrawang. My apologies.
Windar12q,
What is your version of evolution called? What kind of research are you doing with regard to it? I am not sure that the bible says the earth is 6,000 years old. I think some have estimated that it say the earth is 6,000 years old. Geneology estimates are not precise. there is evidence that does indicate less than 10,000 years.
If the earth is young it indicates that evolutIion over a long period of time did not occur. If evolution is not the answer we look for another. The Chronology of the Bible is one possible answer and it appears from the evidence from the young earth argument that the Bible is correct. The supernatural miracles that Jesus did are evidence that Jesus is God.
Windar12q, what basis would you accept as proof of God. The scriptures are not authoritative for you. Biology and other sciences are not authoritative for you. What would be convincing?
Hi windar12q, I must admit that I do not know much about your ‘version’ of evolution but I do know that whatever the ‘version’ there is one thing that is common to all, and that is enormous passages of time!
It is no coincidence that western academia moved from their belief in the great global flood as responsible for the deposition of the majority of earths geological formations and the clear and accurate timeframe set out in the Bible to the ‘deep time’ billions of years paradigm at precisely the same period when Darwin published his, “On the origin of species” work in the 1850’s.
Whether you realise it or not, your version of evolution is still utterly dependent upon the passage of billions of years for it to occur, if it was actually possible, which I am sorry to say to you, it demonstrably and clearly isn’t.
The body of evidence that indicates that the earth is very young is steadily mounting. The move by many evolutionary geologists (at the forefront of their discipline), is towards catastrophic processes, again this is what Bible believing scientists have been demonstrably stating for more than half a century now.
The recent change in the evolutionary geology paradigm was in no small way precipitated by the Mount St Helens eruption in 1980 that saw thousands of fine horizontal sedimentary layers deposited that are now solid sedimentary rock. Prior to that event the layers were interpreted as being laid down over millions of years, but thousands of eye witnesses saw the event at close range when mud flows caused by high speed torrents of water from a ruptured lake near the eruption site laid down the thousands of sedimentary layers in a matter of hours in one afternoon.
You have again stated, “that I have to prove that God exists” but don’t you see that because the world is very young and there simply has not been enough time for evolution to occur, if it were even possible, the implication is that because exquisitely and beautifully designed life is present on this planet in abundant diversity; and the very fact that the Bible tells us that creation occurred about 6,000 years ago out of nothing; the only rational explanation is that it was all created by an incomprehensibly brilliant mastermind who has not left us in the dark but has revealed His great plan to us in the Bible.
I pray that you your eyes are opened and that you are able to comprehend the logic and profound truth in this and come to see the obvious connections.
The Bible tells us this in Romans 1:20: -
For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.
All the best,
Burrawang
Kirk Peters,
I wholeheartedly agree that it is only evolution that desperately needs the earth to be billions of years old to make the theory plausible; even if we accepted the presumed billions of years old age paradigm, and even if we granted that the first cell somehow came into existence, and also granted that evolution was possible, there still has not been anywhere near enough time (in the evolutionary story line) for the imagined evolution to occur from the first living cell to man. I cannot think of any other discipline of science that depends upon an old earth (billions and billions of years), for its very believability and existence.
Windar12q, it is fact that in the right conditions coal can form in less than one year actually in as little as three months.
It is a fact mineralisation of organic structures can and often does occur within decades in the right environment.
It is fact that in the right conditions fossils can form in less than one year. See, "Fossils in a day" by Ron Neller at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/fossils-in-a-day
Worth a read are the articles titled: - “Mount St Helens – exploding the old-earth paradigm” by Michael Oard at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j18_1/j18_1_45-46.pdf
and also “Learning the lessons of Mount St Helens” by Tas Walker at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/lessons-from-mount-st-helens
and also “Coal: memorial to the Flood” by Tas Walker at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/coal-memorial-to-the-flood
I cannot find any real or solid evidence that can be confirmed or definitively verified where a belief in evolution has improved any field of science, and in fact it has hindered progress. In medical science, for example, belief in the evolutionary inspired ideas of junk DNA and vestigial organs has unnecessarily complicated progress in medical science.
Thankfully, both the junk DNA and vestigial organs arguments are now being retracted because it is becoming well known that DNA once thought to be junk left over from imagined evolutionary progress does in fact perform vital functions and is not junk at all and the list of vestigial organs has shrunk to be almost non-existent, it’s no surprise that Bible believing scientists have been stating this fact for decades now, so it’s about time that evolutionists caught up. By the way both junk DNA and vestigial organs were widely used as propaganda to support evolution, not that long ago either, I can remember being bashed over the head numerous times by rabid evolutionists using these two ‘proofs’ of evolution!
I like this revealing quote by: - Dr. Ronald West (Kansas State Univ.) “Paleontology and Uniformitarianism” Compass 45:216, as far back as May 1968 and nothing has changed since then!
“Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so, we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.”
Kirk, many thanks for your informative and soundly reasoned arguments in defence of the hope that is within us.
All the best,
Burrawang
On Tuesday I was shown a Native American axe, or it may have been a hammer or club, made of stone, that had a portion of the material used to attach it to a handle. The material seemed to be leather, but it was fossilized. Kind of stunning to think about. In the same area there were buttons from a military uniform, it seemed to be brass. Also found it that area was a small rock mortar and pestle certainly not big enough to grind groceries, but possibly medicines or paint and dye. Here in North Dakota we have a particular kind of flint that has been found far and wide in areas of the United States where the flint does not occur naturally. I believe I read that all the examples from places far from this area were artifacts, things already made from the flint, not unworked raw material. Some jest that it was North Dakota's first export commodity. I was looking for flint to learn to make stone tools.
Hi windar12q, it is true that the Bible is a book, but it is a book like no other. The Bible is the oldest history book in the world and is historically accurate.
Archaeological discoveries confirm the accuracy of the Bible. The Bible is most certainly not just a book.
If you wish to check this, a mere few articles of many more can be found at: - https://creation.com/new-archaeological-find-affirms-old-testament-historicity“New archaeological find affirms Old Testament historicity” by Don Batten, published 31 July 2007
https://creation.com/the-walls-of-jericho “The walls of Jericho” by Brian Wood, published March 1999
https://creation.com/archaeology-supports-the-bible “Archaeology supports the Bible” published 28 January 2017
https://creation.com/archaeology-questions-and-answers “Archaeology Questions and Answers”
https://creation.com/bible-historical-reliable“Is the Bible reliable as a historical record?”
Did you actually read the article titled, “ATP synthase: majestic molecular machine made by a mastermind” or look at the computer graphic videos at Harvard Universities Biovisions website?
If you did read and view them then it would appear that you do not comprehend the profound implications that arise from the existence of, and the supreme efficiency of the ATP synthase machinery.
To simply brush those profound implications aside as you have done and also with regard to the source of information written on DNA by claiming that energy and quantum entanglement somehow explain their existence speaks volumes.
Although evolution has been demonstrated to be an impossibility, it is still being taught around the world in universities, schools and public media. There is a worldwide ground swell growing that will eventually overturn the disproven Darwinian paradigm, but it will no doubt only happen after the professors and lecturers presently promoting evolution leave academia.
The young generation being taught evolution now are doing so in an environment where: -
1.) the central evolution theory is no longer on its pedestal as
2.) more and more sound evidence is widely known that exposes the evolution myth for what it is.
It is these two facts that will eventually lead to full rejection of the theory.
This particular forum was meant to be about, ”A few thousand not billions of years since creation.”
With that in mind I would like to get this forum back on track about the large body of rigorously obtained evidence that points to a young earth and universe in earth timescale terms.
In biology, one of the most damming pieces of evidence for ‘deep time’ and belief in evolution is the incessant accumulation of mutations that are steadily destroying the complex specified information written on DNA.
There is simply no way to explain this fact away!
From what I have read about this matter, it seems that ardent evolutionists just want it to go away, and try ignoring the fact of the matter.
It is my experience that atheist evolutionists simply won’t engage or even consider the obvious implication that if all lifeforms DNA is steadily degrading, (that is now referred to as Genetic Entropy), then in the past, when this proven fact is extrapolated back in time, the genome information written on the DNA had far greater specified complexity. This fact is perfectly consistent with Adam and Eve being created by God who made their physical bodies to live eternally. Interestingly, this fact is also the antithesis of evolution!
The Biblical history recorded in Genesis, allows us to understand that it was only after the fall (when Adam and Eve disobeyed God) that the degradation of the genome commenced.
It is going to become increasingly difficult for evolutionists to continue belief in evolution as more and more rigorously obtained and readily repeatable evidence is published.
The religious ideological nature of the devout followers of evolution will no doubt drive some to attempt to stall the acceptance of the sound evidence that refutes the theory, but I am certain that the truth will become known in the end, i.e. evolution is an unscientific myth.
Cheers,
Burrawang
Windar12q, people do evil and abhorrent things all over the world every day but you appear unable to understand that it is people with free will that have made the decision to do the evil. The cause is people and most definitely not God.
Attempts are often made to direct blame for these evil actions on the Bible in a thinly veiled rebellion against God and Christians. As Ekruse1406 has correctly stated, the truth about the African atrocities is that poverty, illiteracy, manipulation and superstition are the drivers for that evil.
Windar12q, you keep continually demanding proof that God exists.
I could just as easily ask you to demonstrate evolution, but there would be no point because evolution has been scientifically falsified as a disproven theory.
There is absolutely zero that you could present that would demonstrate evolution; not even one tiny thing!
I honestly expect that no matter what evidence is presented to you that points to the existence of God, it will be rejected 'out of hand' no matter what.
That said, I do hope and pray that you will seriously ponder the profound implications that have arisen from the study of micro-biology.
From extensive research over past decades in numerous disciplines at hundreds and likely thousands of institutions around the world we now have at our fingertips enormous quantities of detailed information about the most profound irreducibly complex, brilliantly designed structures and processes. We have already mentioned deoxyribonucleic acid DNA that encodes the blueprint plans for the building, maintenance and operation of life so we will park that for now and have a look at one of the nano-machines that keeps us alive every second of our lives.
When I first discovered that every single cell of the many trillions of cells in your body has numerous adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthase electric motors in the mitochondrial membrane spinning at somewhere around 10,000 revolutions per minute, I was absolutely stunned, surprised just doesn’t cover it. Man made electric motors run on a flow of electrons but these tiny motors run on a flow of protons and revolve in the opposite direction to the large and clumsy inefficient man-made motors. Every revolution produces three molecules of ATP and each and everyday we produce over half our body weight of ATP that keeps us alive.
If you really wish to see what I would describe as very strong evidence that God exists or you would like to know more about the ATP synthase motor, take a look at the article titled: - “ATP synthase: majestic molecular machine made by a mastermind” by Brian Thomas that can be found at the hyperlink: - https://creation.com/atp-synthase
I know that you will most likely have a problem with my statement, “very strong evidence that God exists” but if you understand the science and if you know a thing or two about probability theory and if you have a reasonable grasp of chemistry and physics and lastly know a thing or two about mechanics and electrical engineering then you will know with a certainty that the only cogent explanation for the existence and ongoing operation of these tiny electric motors is that they were made by God. The adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthase electric motors design and efficiency far, far, far surpasses anything that has been made by mankind. What you are failing to comprehend is that the construction of trillions of these nano machines in every person, or ant or blade of grass or tree or horse or mosquito is right down at the molecular level. In simple terms the brilliant intelligence that designed these machines has the knowledge and capability to manipulate atoms and molecules around into the most efficient electric motors known to exist in the universe.
If you want to see a few simulations of the inner life of the cell, you could take a good look at the computer graphics at Biovisions at http://biovisions.mcb.harvard.edu/ The inner life series is worth a watch of the video animation just to get a tiny glimpse of the trillions of things going on inside every cell in our bodies, ALL the time.
Sincerely,
Burrawang
Probably means it is not proven.