Nov 2

Why us?

47 comments

Hello everyone! Since our other discussion thread was getting rather cumbersome (I estimate we would have to click through at least 15 "load more replies" buttons before finding the end) I wanted to start a new post. This topic is partly inspired by our previous discussion on slavery, and I think it is fundamental to any of our beliefs: what makes us, as humans, special and valuable? This could include discussions on any of the following, or other questions as they come up:

- It has been said that we are "star stuff", and the Bible says we are made in God's image. What do you believe we are made of?

- Why are we different than animals?

- What is "consciousness"?

- Where does our value as humans come from?

- How do our beliefs about these questions impact our lives?

 

I look forward to hearing your views!

 

There is something I think God has put on my heart to say. He loves you before you love Him. Wow, that's amazing.

Consciousness is a wonderful thing, almost like magic. Thomas Huxley once said that waking in the morning to consciousness is the same as Aladdin rubbing the lamp and a genie appearing.

I love the idea that you are beginning to open your mind, because there is so much exploring to do.

I will reply to most of what you ask. but first I will wait and see what kind of response you get and from what quarters.

Regards.

Greetings, @ekrause1406! Thank you for starting this new topic! These are very interesting questions, and I would be curious to hear others' ( @cwh? @S.M.S.? @MDS) thoughts on them.

 

Interestingly, a lot (probably all, actually) of my thoughts on these questions ultimately stem from my Christian beliefs.

 

Certainly, humans are made out of atoms and molecules just like pretty much everything else in our universe. However, I think that we humans are more than the sum of our physical parts: I believe that humans have supernatural souls.

 

I am sure that just about everyone (even those who would classify humans as animals) would agree that humans are exceptional. However, a divergence probably occurs there. Are humans merely exceptional animals? If not, what made (and makes) us exceptional (what standard are we compared with)? For that matter, how do we define "exceptional" in the first place? Ultimately, I think that humans are "moral" in a way that animals will never be. Humans have a sense of eternity that animals do not have. In the end, I think that the things that make humans exceptional are ultimately things from God.

 

Anyway, to give my thoughts on one more question, I think that our value as humans comes from Jesus Christ. Christ valued every human enough that he would lay down his life for every human, no matter how undeserving every human may be. In the end, the fact that God values humans shows us that we, as humans, have value.

 

Thanks again for starting this new topic!

Hello Jonathan, I agree with most of what you say, we are an exceptional species. ekruase puts it eloquently when she calls us 'Star dust.'

We are exceptional and our exception I have realised by constant study, is the result of evolution. Consciousness is like magic, but our subconscious is the forbearer of this magic. The trillions of neurons in our brain play with the music of life continuously; 16/7 when we are awake and 24/7 when we are asleep or awake. In the greater scheme of things, it's isn't very difficult to see that our subconscious is the most important of the two.

The trillions of neurons trigger activity in the trillions of synapses that help the eye to construct what it is seeing and when we sleep the construction carries on endlessly. If the mind is constructing when we are asleep - what is it constructing? To construct means something is being instrumental - a cause to cause what? The eye is not like a camera and the parts that set up this construction are the same parts acting when we are asleep and are therefore still constructing. In our conscious world we construct hoping to put things right and that is what the subconscious must be doing, because that is its function.

The sub. and the con. are by their very nature different, but one shows its ability and we can measure it. the other hides its ability and we cannot measure it - yet! When we learn too measure it, I'm sure that all the supernatural will be explained.

Your query of life and its divergence I will approach later in the debate, but now is too early.

 

 

 

Hello! On the topic of what exactly we are made of, I believe that we have both physical bodies and eternal souls, the same position as Jonathan. Our brain uses its physical structure to interpret our world through thought and our subconscious (as windar12q writes), but I believe there is more to consciousness than brain activity. We also have a sense of morality, creativity, and spirituality that is unique from other creatures. I just recently realized how human creativity points to us being in the image of God. We are the only creature in the world that constantly builds innovations that radically transform the way we live. We are also the only creatures who make art and write stories. God is the one who created the world, He is the epitome of creativity. Our creativity is a small reflection of God's creativity, it only makes sense that if we are made in His image, we have this ability. If I were to define conscience, it would go something like this: The image of God that makes us unique from all other creatures; it includes the abilities of morality, creativity, spirituality, logical reasoning, and will.

Nov 3Edited: Nov 3

Hello ekrause, could you explain how the subconscious interprets our world? This must bring in phenomenon such as 'Dreams of the future.' and 'ghosts.'

Innovations are not just confined to our species, it's evident in many species as we journey down the evolutionary scale. The different innovations vary in their level of intellect occupied by the species; this governs their ability to innovate. It gives clear evidence of evolution.

Could you demonstrate what you mean by spiritual?

Best regards.

@windar12q Hello windar12q! I understand the subconscious as everything the mind does without us having to think about it. For example, as I type these words I do not have to focus on instructing the joints in my fingers to bend. I believe dreams of the future and "ghosts" fall more into the category of spiritual things than the subconscious (at least if we are talking about real ones). If a dream of the future is one of those rare cases when it was actually intended as a message, then it is not the mind that creates it but supernatural action (God or Satan). If your brain just happened to dream of something that happened the next day, that is the subconscious. I have no way to tell between them 100% of the time, but the Bible says to test any messages you get by the standard of God's Word; if God spoke in a dream, you would know it was Him. Ghosts are similar, in that some are only imagined subconsciously but others are supernatural. However, the Bible is clear that people who have died do not linger on earth spiritually.

 

What I mean by "spiritual" is that we have a desire to seek something to believe in. This week is Spiritual Emphasis Week at my school and our theme for the week is seeking God. The pastor who came described it this way, which I think summarizes what it means to be spiritual beings: We have a God-shaped hole in our hearts, and we are constantly trying to fill it. What you fill that hole with and whether it is effective depends on your beliefs. Jesus is the only way to fill that hole that will satisfy you for eternity. It seems to me that you try to fill the hole with science.

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the other questions, too!

Nov 6Edited: Nov 6

@ekrause1406 By saying this phenomenon is something from God, you have stopped thinking, Try to use your gift of intelligence and express yourself the way nature intended for you to do.

I have given you an explanation what these Dreams and Ghosts are and their function, using facts to back up what I say. Just compare what you are saying, which is only based on faith. Be honest with yourself and admit it is only by using logic can you come up with the one true answer?

You must understand my position as regards magic, I can't debate with magic as my adversary?

With faith (Magic) I can believe anything I want, but that does not mean it is true. This 'magic' is making a mockery of religion; which those that are indoctrinated are for some reason unable to escape; they go on pretending this 'magic' is real.

The subconscious spends our awakening hours absorbing and our hours of sleep using; it is its own master, over which we have no control, but still must be constructing because it is using the the correlation of sub. and con; according to the evidence. That is how the universe and all the energy it contains also works.

Dreams and ghosts are only there to serve evolution and the evidence proves this. You will come to understand the world with its meaning of life if you throw away those chains and start thinking.

The hole in your heart is not God made - use your logic; the hole you describe is the emotional one which helps us to survive by knowing that well-being is important to a tribal species. It's the way in which we learn to respect one another. Please ekrause, use facts and don't let the pastor fill your head with more 'magic.' - there is no such thing.

 

Load more replies

Hello windar12q! I am glad to share why I value my faith so highly. Of anything I have experienced in my life, there has been nothing more satisfying than God. Everything else in the world is conditional, the world says "You're not good enough"; but God says "I love you no matter what, come seek Me." I am amazed by just how deep this love goes. One day as I took communion (bread and wine as Jesus' body and blood, I could describe a little more later, if you like) I realized that God loved us so much that He would become something we put in our mouths. Think of how crazy this love sounds. Why would God, who could have revealed Himself in any way He wanted, choose something so low and simple? I think He did it to prove a point.

In my life right now I have many changes coming up in the next few years (college, moving out, starting a career, starting a family, etc.). God's love for me will never change. Of course I still get stressed, but when I go to God in prayer He works a miniature miracle reminding me that He is in control. One thing that strikes me as a demonstration of God's constancy is history. Science is virtually unrecognizable from what it used to be (for example, alchemy and horoscopes used to be reputable studies). It makes me wonder what dearly held scientific principles we have today will eventually be proven wrong. Through all of this, the Bible has emerged unaltered over thousands of years.

I love it when we have chapel in the morning, it just starts the day off right. I have one of the songs in my head right now, "King of Kings" by Hillsong.

 

A little bit of a random question that came into my head about your post: how do you believe that quantum energy (evolving as one) relates to our distinction from animals and our value as humans?

Nov 8Edited: Nov 9

Hello ekrause, your life seems as if it is about to make a giant leap and I wish you all the luck, in what I know is not only a worrying time, but also exciting. I think the latter mostly wins.

You ask why I think that quantum entanglement relates to the variety of life and our value as humans; the answer is a complex one and being a layman, I can only explain it in layman's terms; I have however been researching the supernatural and the natural for over fifty years and I have not just made my mind up on the spur of the moment.

When a light is shone through a prism, it gives individual beams of light, which are made of photons. Photons contain one or more electrons, the more electrons the higher the frequency. Quantum particles contained around these electrons can react to one another instantaneously over any distance, acting as one. Remember discussing hate and love being one emotion, well the same applies to these particles; by acting together instantaneously it is happening faster than the speed of light. This is really another illusion perpetrated by nature; they are not going faster than the speed of light; it is much more exciting, because they are just one particle being in two places at the same time. Just like our emotions. This experiment was carried out using the one beam of light and all the particles reacted in this way to that one event. Take life and the way these particles can react to one another over the same event, well life can gain using this energy system to flourish. The biological controlled energy can work to the laws of nature that guide everything in the universe and life being one energy is the same as one event. Logically this controlled energy will serve itself with what it needs to survive and that is how the divergence in evolution would have come to fruition and always will. Human species cannot survive without all the other species and all the other species could not survive without us. Evolution isn't controlled by some God, it is self serving. (It is self serving by the neuron activity in the brain which is emotionally controlled by what is needed and what isn't. This is life's energy connection in the subconscious.) I mentioned in one of my letters that a star was a good example of how energy works - when it overloads its capacity it implodes and becomes a Black Hole. This can't happen in the energy that is evolution unless all life reached the same level of intelligence, but this can't happen as easily, because evolution is under a biological control. ( I don't mean that life would implode, but become extinct.)

Physicist Richard Feynman tried to explain this connection in 1940 by using a fourth dimension to back up his one electron theory, but he failed because the electrons and the positrons did not match up. Though his theory was wrong, his ideas had some similarity with what quantum entanglement does.

I mention Feynman as an example of what you mentioned about science can be wrong; of course you are right, but where you are wrong is, science progresses by trying to correct its mistakes and religion brings in the 'God of the Gaps' when they can't explain something. Religion's mistakes go on, never being corrected and this is the reason for all the dangerous paths that it takes us down. Your reluctance to condemn slavery is just one of them. I don't believe for one moment that you condone it, but your religion won''t let you be yourself. No one of sound mind in the 21st Century could believe that slavery is OK.

Good luck on your voyage of discovery. (Going out on your own.)

I'll just add this little bit extra to avoid confusion; the self serving evolution started at the beginning - let's start with the virus, it's a good enough far down the line species to allow for an explanation. The virus is a dormant life-form which is what most of the evidence points to at the start of life. The virus to enable it to function needs a living tissue to start that function and from the beginning life has proceeded in that way, up to our intelligent species appearing. Without this diversity of life giving purpose there would have never been an intelligent species. The diversity of life has played the prominent part in our reaching this level of intelligence and now we can not only protect ourselves, but protect that diversity that means so much to us.

By understanding how life evolves will benefit us in our exploration of space - imagine going where no man has gone before and not knowing the basics of life?

 

 

 

@windar12q Hello windar12q! To understand a little more about what you believe about quantum mechanics' impact on life, I looked up some information on current theories (some people believe that one molecule on two sides of the DNA strand at once causes beneficial mutations because the environmental conditions act as an "observer". I got the general idea but don't understand the full reasoning behind calling the environment an "observer"). One thing I did learn is that mainstream quantum mechanics (the Copenhagen Theory) interprets the nature of subatomic physics as evidence that matter and energy do not determine everything (at least that's how it seemed when I read it). The observer is extremely powerful, and this power and what exactly it is to "observe" seems to be one of the biggest debates among theories; the Many-Worlds Hypothesis finds it so troubling that it removes this power by claiming each observation causes reality to split into infinitely many parallel universes (which are by nature untestable scientifically). Many Christian scientists see the influence of observers as evidence that God placed humanity in a special position. No discoveries of subatomic physics contradict the message of the Gospel or the existence of God. In fact, they point to His genius. I read about a theory that plants send the same particle down multiple pathways to find the best one during photosynthesis (I can't say I completely understand this one either, but it was fascinating). Humanity is only just beginning to use quantum physics, but God has used it in His creations since the beginning.

 

As you can see, I do not disagree with the science of quantum physics as it is commonly applied. I only disagree with the use of it as a complete belief system (determining philosophical, theological, and moral truths), since it only truly acts on the tinniest levels.

 

What do you mean by a dormant life form being the start of life?

Nov 11Edited: Nov 11

Hello ekrause, your religion is stopping you from seeing accurately, just like in the case of slavery. You can't just make a statement that it is the work of God unless you can demonstrate it; this is the reason for your travels down paths where there is no reason to go and paths that will lead you into more trouble.

Mutations in DNA mostly cause some impediment and are not to be mistaken for the changes that happen normally. The mutations that happen normally regarding evolution are triggered to help the species to survive and the DNA changes only occur when it is a natural beginning of a new species. The genome consists of a number of genetic material which is ready to be used depending on what has triggered the change and what that change needs. ( I don't know how this message is relayed to this genetic material, but my bet it is similar to the photosynthesis in plant life.) The same format could work in this way and with an intelligent induced subconscious governing the result, it would make that much difference. Though I can't say for certain that this is true, don't you see how the inquisitive mind never rests; this is sadly lacking in religion which would just bring in the God of the Gaps to explain it and the irony of that is, it is not explaining anything. Matter and energy don't determine everything, it's a combination of these and the law of physics that determine everything. Don't allow religion to stop you thinking ekrause.

Read your bible with an open mind, you will see that DNA is not mentioned and germs are not mentioned either. Jesus didn't advise on cleanliness, he just said the food is OK, just put it into your mouth. When people got ill, why didn't Jesus know about germs? Why was it thought to be the work of Satan or Demons?

ekrause, I don't mean to be dogmatic, but when the mention of scripture from the bible is brought forward I find it embarrassing, because to me it is all contradictory, it's the equivalent of reading any other type of fiction and for me to accept fiction as fact, I find embarrassing; you must see my position. Though your attempts to convert me are honest and you are fully pledged; it only makes me more determined to bring out the truth about religion. What I am really saying is please stop trying to convert me it won't work.

Like I explained in my other letter, which you did not remark on about condoning slavery; religion is the arbiter of its own downfall, because for as long as it can go on spreading hate, then life will always go on in conflict. It's only by religion's demise will life ever find some kind of peace.

I still wish you well.

 

Hello windar12q! You have often said to read scripture with an open mind. I completely agree. How much have you read personally (not as parts of other articles or from what another source tells you)?

I read scripture for daily devotions. I am reading John right now, I'm up to chapter 5. Would you also like to try reading the book of John?

 

About my previous post, I was presenting what other theories believe when I referenced beneficial mutations, not what I believed. I apologize for any un-clarity.

 

Jesus still loves you, and your embarrassment by Him doesn't scare Him away. This is how He feels about you:

 

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him (Jesus). And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

- Luke 15:1-7, The Parable of the Lost Sheep

 

Nov 12Edited: Nov 12

@ekrause1406 I'm sad you don't recognize that it is you who is the lost sheep. I have not read much of the bible, but I had it read to me constantly when I was a child and I was about 10 years old when I began to question it. I find myself embarrassed by this book and that is the reason I could never read it again. I implore you to question everything before accepting it - not questioning is the road to folly. This is another reason why I find quoting the scriptures is futile; when you know they are fictitious, the more you quote them, the less they mean.

You inquired about a dormant life and its connection. There have been many examples of archaic bacteria found in rock that is over billions of years old and long before religion cast its shadow. I have mentioned factual statistics to you regarding this dormant life, but you are oblivious of the fact because your faith is blinding you to the truth. Our consciousness works on average 16/7, our subconscious works 24/7 never stopping. The dormant part of life is still active and still guiding life to whatever destiny it has in store; the dormancy is what we now call the subconscious. It is not so difficult when looking at the evidence to recognize that in the greater scheme of things, the subconscious reigns supreme. Your bible has 210 dreams and the interpretation of these dreams makes a mockery of the facts of life.

Evolution also loves you and would welcome you to its world of wonder if you could shake off those chains that imprison your mind. ekrause, I am going to be blunt again, please don't say Jesus loves me, unless you can demonstrate it? By the way, I can demonstrate that evolution loves you, but you would still believe that which you can't prove - imagine going into court to defend something you cannot prove; of course this would never happen, it only happens with religion.

A question - would you defend something in court without proof to back it up? Your faith is run on the same principle so I imagine your answer is yes. If not; why not?

Of course you must answer no because that is the true answer,but why it's yes for religion, I will never understand. When you disregard the facts and apply assumptions, you can build a world of your own choosing; it could be a world created by fairies, or a world of magic, or a world of Gods, but it doesn't really matter because reality is not like that, they only exist in your mind.

I know how hard it is to change your mind about religion, because I hear of some really sad stories where families break up; mothers,fathers and siblings. Do you really think that religion is the messenger of love or the destroyer? All this avoidable aggro over something that isn't real. God is love and we are all equal, but some are more equal than others according to him; why can't he make his mind up? He wrecks havoc and destroys families wherever his name is mentioned. (Slavery is just one example.) There is nothing good about your God that I can see; at least I know where I am with the Devil. Your God of love is just an illusion, he couldn't exist with what is the lowest of moral standards, which fade into oblivion when compared to those of an ordinary mortal.

Regards

 

@windar12q Hello windar12q. You may be interested to know that the Bible also condemns disregarding the facts to build a world of your own choosing. I know you have a low opinion of scripture right now but your comment not to try to convert you reminded me that I need scripture more than anything because I have to rely on God's grace, not my own words.

 

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. - 2 Timothy 4:1-4

 

You must have heard very different stories (and had a very different experience) than I have. I have experienced God's love in my family. My dad is active on a different creation-evolution debate forum, and we have discussions about the topics that are coming up in our conversations. When we talk about God it strengthens our relationship because we are trusting each other with what we are learning about God. Recently I started keeping a sketch journal of the sermon each Sunday (drawing helps me remember, I only remember one church sermon from last year before I started it, the phrase "Jesus satisfies"). Dad told me this Sunday that He looks at the sketches I make, and I was surprised by how not-awkward that felt. One thing I am wanting to get better at is sharing my spiritual thoughts and questions. I still find it hard to request prayer, but when I do ask someone to pray for me and I pray for that person as well, I feel a deeper relationship with them. This summer I was very stressed about confusion in the work schedule at my first job. I was about to go to bed but the problem was weighing on me. I asked my mom to pray for me and we prayed together right there in the living room. I remember feeling the peace of God come on me in a real way. Of course we aren't perfect, no family is, but I have found that faith brings out the best in us.

 

I am curious about you argument that evolution can love. How does it do that (truly, intentionally) if it is only a natural force?

Load more replies
Nov 14Edited: Nov 14

ekrause1406.

When your bible misuses the way that emotions function, it is showing that your God has no understanding of the fundamental structure of life and its evolving, which proves that your God cannot exist. (He created something that he has no idea how to run.) It takes a lot of faith to believe that one. (Think hard on this and realize what you are doing and saying, this is why I can't do the same thing - this is why I find it embarrassing.)

Having faith in a God that is as incompetent as this one, makes you susceptible to the same mistakes and that is why you and your fellow Christians cannot answer simple questions that only need simple answers. Your God could answer,but his lack of moral standards would be ignored by a free thinking mind. You would be able to answer if you moral compass was working, but alas it isn't and all because of your religion. My advice ekrause is to be yourself, you are better than this and it goes for your followers too - ask themselves why they can't answer these simple moral questions?

Hello windar12q! I read through your list of accusations against my God, and found some verses on each that you may want to read.

1. Stoning - This was a punishment for various sins including as you mentioned, witchcraft (Leviticus 20:27) and blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16). You may want to read John 8:1-11, when Jesus rescues a woman from being stoned.

 

2. Sacrifice - Throughout the Bible, sacrifice is used to atone for sin. In Old Testament times, people had to sacrifice animals on a regular basis. However, God was less concerned about the animal sacrifices themselves and more concerned with the hearts of the people offering them. He expressed this vividly to the unfaithful nation of Israel in Isaiah 1:10-20. Jesus was the final sacrifice that wiped away all sins. If you read one passage in this list, read Isaiah 53, a prophecy about Jesus.

 

3. Incest - punishment for incestual relations (Leviticus 20:10-21). Something to note is that incest is included in the Bible as part of the narrative of people's lives (same with other sins). This is akin to the way a history book reporting an event happened does not mean it endorses the action. We must look to what God says, not what people do. The Bible is unique among religious texts in its focus on the errors of its human characters. This only brings more glory to God, who redeems each one of them time after time.

 

4. Mass murder / ethnic cleansing - God commanded Israel to drive out the pagan nations that occupied the Promised Land because He wanted to set Israel apart for a special purpose and fulfill His promise to them. He did not want idol-worshiping nations to lure His people away from Him (Deuteronomy 7). This was only a temporary command which God deemed necessary for His grander purpose. We see God's heart in His desire to send the good news of Jesus to all nations (Luke 24:44-49).

 

5. Killing the innocent / children - the punishment for child sacrifice is death (Leviticus 20:1-5).

 

6. Love and hate separate - The only acceptable hatred according to God is a hatred of evil (Romans 12:9). God may allow something evil to happen, but He only allows what His wisdom says is best for bringing people close to Him and demonstrating His love. In my life, I have noticed that growth in my relationship with God happens more readily in the midst of a challenge, when I am forced to rely on God over myself. To God, everything is designed to increase love. Hate will end, but love will last forever. Take a look at this passage:

 

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Ekruase, it doesn't matter what your God says, killing is killing; two wrongs don't make a right. Why is it your omnipotent God can only solve a problem by more and more bloodshed? Open your eyes ekrause, don't blame it on the people - your God is all powerful.

Unruly children were to be stoned to death - why did you miss that one?

Slavery is slavery whichever way you choose to describe it, You missed that one too.

There is no such thing as witches; why didn't this all powerful God know this? A witch in name only does not mean that witches exist, it's the same with the name God.

Remember It was God who asked Abraham to sacrifice his son; the fact that God withdrew his challenge doesn't release him from an act of depravity of which only your God can stoop.

Why do you miss that which condemns your God - are you afraid to mention its name? WHY? What the angels told Lot to do with his daughters?

Lot's wife, why does he have to be so sadistic?

I could go on, but I would end up writing a tome.

You must also know that love and hate emotions, as do all emotions, compliment each other? To deny this is the equivalent of denying your own existence. Can't you see what your faith is doing to you?

Expand on this denial of reality and it doesn't take much summing up to realize all the religious atrocities that are caused, are caused because of ignorance.

Please take time and list the bad things that are associated with your God; if I can find them, then so can you. Compare them to your own moral values and you will eventually start to see the truth - God is a made up excuse because of man's ignorance and nothing more. Stop making excuses for him - he is made of the most hideous values, that he can't exist. There as never been anyone in the annals of history that could come anywhere near to God's level of depravity.

Sorry to be so straight forward, but there is no other way.

@windar12q Hello windar12q. Of course I have also read the things you have read (I did not include the slavery passages because we have already discussed them). However I have also read and experienced the overwhelming goodness of God. It is because of this fact that these accounts you mention that are difficult to understand do not drive me away from God. I will not lie, why God would allow evil is difficult to understand for me or any Christian; but the difference between you and I is that I know God's goodness. You have only focused on things you don't like about God. Does the fact that you do not like God make Him not exist? God will exist whether you like Him or not. All He asks of you is trust, you don't have to understand perfectly. There is a Biblical book that comes to mind as I type this, the book of Job. In it, God allows Satan to test Job, one of His most faithful followers. He lets Satan take away everything Job ever had; he lost his family, his things, his health.

 

Job felt like God had done wrong and was punishing him unjustly, and was frustrated that his prayers had not been answered:

19 God[c] has cast me into the mire, and I have become like dust and ashes. 20 I cry to you for help and you do not answer me; I stand, and you only look at me. 21 You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me. - Job 30:19-21

 

Despite everything, Job had faith.

15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him;[a] yet I will argue my ways to his face. -Job 13:15

 

When God finally answered, He did not explain His reasoning to Job. He instead affirmed His sovereignty over everything that was going on, that He had wisdom that Job had no means to comprehend.

“Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.” -Job 40:2

 

Job realized the truth in what God was telling him and repented.

“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent[a] in dust and ashes.” -Job 42:2-6

 

God expressed His faithfulness to Job afterward.

12 And the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning. -Job 42:12a

 

I know this post got long, but I wanted to express that you are not the only person who questions God. Faithful believers do it all the time. We know that God will treat us faithfully even in our doubts. We may not understand everything that happens, or even why exactly God took a certain action in the Bible, but we know He is always faithful. He is big enough for questions, go ahead and ask. (I have a song that came into my head again, "Why God?" by Austin French)

 

 

 

5 days agoEdited: 5 days ago

@ekrause1406 You express the laws of God allow him to do anything and that he can't do wrong for doing right. Don't you see that this kind of ideology is the reason for most of the unrest in the world? It is this type of ideology that makes people fly planes into buildings killing thousands of people. It may be caused by other religions, but the ideology is still the same; they think they are doing right, and you think you are doing right. This not only applies to today, take a look at the history of religion. Remember the orphaned children being blamed for the loss of their parents and being burnt alive as witches. I know that you will make up some excuse to deny it, but whatever excuse you turn to, it will not obliterate those words in your bible. This is also the reason I brought up slavery again, it was because you went along with what the bible says - you are condoning this ideology, you are helping this cruelty to go on with your denial and I know you are not doing it intentionally. Let go of that book or it will carry on destroying that which we all want to preserve - peace.

If you really believe your God exists then demonstrate it.

It really shouldn't be left to you to demonstrate it, if your God wanted me to believe in him, I'm sure he would know how to do it. The trouble with all of us knowing, then there would only be one religion and one religion with its 'opposing' views of reality would mean the end of constructive purpose and the end of intelligent life. It is a circular argument that will lead us nowhere. Think it out? Your made up God is a liability and should be allowed to disappear into the mists of time like all myths do. Please ekrause don't quote the bible; the bible is just a book; the fact that you can't demonstrate any of it to be true, proves this.. (No demonstration, no quotes.)

(''Opposing' views of reality are just the few that my letter points to; there are many more.)

With respect ekrause, I'm just trying to show you the truth.

 

Hello Jonathan, you ask an awkward question, but if you think about it, only God would know the answer to that. If he wanted me or anyone else to believe in him, then tell him to bring it on.

This brings me to another question, this time for you - what convinces you that there is a god if you cannot demonstrate it? FAITH is not a reliable pathway to the truth.

This is the question I would ask myself many times and it was then that I realized I could conjure up anything I wanted; I could live in a fantasy world for the rest of my life, not just one of religion; I could live in a world of magic, but then I would think again and came to the decision that my fantasy world would not contribute to society. it could only hinder or even destroy reality if I persisted in this make-believe world. This is what religion has been doing for centuries and only now with our growing intelligence is it on its decline.

I cannot see why anyone should take seriously something that cannot be proved and if I can come to this logical conclusion, then so must your God. He can't show himself because he does not exist and because he does not exist is the reason I can't give you an answer. I am not omnipotent. The burden of proof is for your God to prove he exists, not me.

Good to hear from you.

Greetings, @windar12q!

 

I have some thoughts regarding your discussion of "living in a fantasy world." I find it interesting that you say that your persistence in a make-believe world could destroy reality. Reality must be a very fragile thing if belief in make-believe concepts can damage it so. For that matter, how do you know that what you describe as "reality" is not just another fantasy world? How do you know that what you consider "reality" is not just an illusion? Finally, how do you know that God is not the real reality, and how can you have any assurance that, in the end, your atheistic fantasy world will not vanish like smoke?

 

Finally, you say that "God can't show himself because he doesn't exist." However, God has indeed shown himself. I just hope you will be willing to look.

 

Peace.

@Jonathan Schulz I only have a book to tell me that God has revealed himself, but a book Jonathan, is a book. I have written a book, anyone can write a book, it doesn't mean we have to believe that book.

I do not have to look far to see how religion is destroying reality, it is displayed in the thousands of different religions; they can all be wrong, but they can't all be right. You are a religious man, don't you ever wonder why this is so? Your religion stops you from thinking, which is going against all that nature is telling you - this is also going against reality.

I remember when I was young, my dream-like world took me sailing the seven seas, riding the range with Hopalong Cassidy, or living with She in H. Rider Haggard's tale of eternal life and facing the dangers of the Jungle with Tarzan in the tales of Edgar Rice Burroughs.. But when I became a man, I put away my childish things, but some just can't do this. Do all those worlds exist and the one I am in now, just an illusion? You are just using the same logic as you use with your religion, trying to establish the wanting and not what is. I'm not being derogatory when I suggest you are bringing that childish human desire into play to feel good; we all do it, it is still there. It's inherited from our evolving; it's part of wanting for more and is the same emotion that drives our intelligence.

I don't care if this life is just an illusion, I am still going to live it as this illusion dictates. I see no problem with that, so why would you? Your logic suggesting another reality is the same as in your other illusion, which is God. I see no use for the suggestion of something that cannot be proved.

Jonathan, you didn't answer my question - faith is not a reliable pathway to the truth, so why do you believe in something that cannot be proved?

Regards

 

 

Load more replies

So, if I warn you about the grave danger you are in as you stubbornly refuse to leave your burning house, that is somehow unloving and intimidating?

New Posts
  • Greetings, all! Recently, a new update was released for our forum here which allows me to create "badges" and award them to specific commentators. You may have already noticed some of them on your user profile! Anyway, feel free to suggest ideas for new badges (or changes to current ones) on this thread! Thanks!
  • What is and what isn't? Looking at religion and evolution, will their disputes go on forever, will we ever find a compromise? Let's give it a go. Dr Donald Hoffman is a cognitive scientist at The University of California. He discovered while researching the jewel beetle of Australia, that all life cannot see accurately. The jewel beetle had been successfully breeding for nearly two million years giving science the idea that seeing accurately was a key to their success, Only the male beetle can fly, this enables him to spot the female on the ground - the female is brown, shiny and dimpled. Then came the jolly swagman and after drinking his beer he would throw his empties into the Outback Over a period of time the amount of bottles began to increase - the bottles were brown, shiny and dimpled; the poor male beetle couldn't tell the difference between a bottle and a female and so began the species decline. Taking this further; if all life cannot see accurately and this is beneficial to life; then what seems like a handicap is anything but. To explain how this works, let's imagine two worlds and to simplify, I shall call them two jigsaws. Jigsaw No 1 is inhabited by a species that can see accurately; seeing accurately gives little or no constructive purpose. The jigsaw is completed in no time, giving the species nowhere to go which in time will lead to its demise. This appears a contradiction in terms, because the jewel beetle was becoming extinct and it could not see accurately. There has to be another reason why not seeing accurately was disastrous for the beetle and beneficial to us and to all life. I'll explain as I go on. Jigsaw No2 is inhabited by a species that cannot see accurately; this life struggles, but its struggle gives constructive purpose, which is passed down to the individuals of that species and feeds its intelligence. This however leads to one big problem; if all life is in the same boat, (not seeing accurately) which feeds its intelligence, then why hasn't all life reached the same level of intelligence? Example; the jewel beetle, why hadn't it evolved to a higher standard, this would have helped it to survive? After much deliberation, I can only come to one conclusion - I can dismiss the probability of some divine interference, because that would have put me back on jigsaw No1 and on my way to extinction with no constructive purpose. The God of the Gaps would only stall the truth. This leaves me with just one choice - all life must be connected and working as a one energy system. Life started as one and must still be evolving as one, to the same energy pattern. If we compare evolutionary progress to the patterns of the Cosmos and connect life as one system of energy, we have a symmetry that is hard to deny. Mass times space = 0, does that make intelligence times variety = 0. If we take mass as our grouped intelligence, then take the variety of lesser intelligence that make up for all the rest of life and call it space; the comparison between dark matter and the 'stability' of the universe and the 'stability' of life under evolution is too close to the mark to ignore. If all life had reached the same level, this would have been too much for the species to gather the food (variety) that is needed to feed intelligence. Some have trouble with this equation; 'mass times space = 0.'and the best way is to use the description aired by the late Stephen Hawking, which is imagine digging a hole, and with the dirt from the hole you can build a hill, but you are still left with the hole. When comparing it with 'mass times space = 0; the hill is the planets and stars; space is the hole. The Monarch butterfly migrates in its millions from North America to Central Mexico; a journey of 2,500 miles. It goes through three generations on its migration, but still manages the journey. The magnetic pull of the earth is suspected to have a lot to do with this, but the most important thing is; they are all connected for their survival. All life is subjected to the same laws of nature, but depending on the variety of the species, their survival instinct will vary. An intelligent species can adapt to any climate and therefore its needs are different. An intelligent life (apart from the obvious) depends on purpose; purpose is the food on which it feeds. No purpose, no you and me; by that I mean constructive purpose. Going back to when life first began; was it by chance that a mutation happened, or have we not been seeing accurately? Did the mutation happen because that is what would serve its lineage or was it to produce its food? (Purpose.) Was this connection, this one energy pattern just serving itself with either, or was it serving itself with both? Surely the latter would be more beneficial to an intelligent species? In fact, it would be imperative, because just serving lineage would not create much excitement and certainly no variety. Variety is the spice of life. The one complements the other - lineage and variety. The protozoan is a mystery to science in that it appears to have no common evolutionary history. It has a few animal characteristics, like being able to swim, but only relying on a membrane for its functions. It's as if its importance is irrelevant in the in the evolving of life; how can this be, surely nature doesn't produce willy - nilly? Are we seeing accurately when looking at the protozoan and its functions? If we consider the one energy system, then the protozoan is part of that one energy pattern and is fulfilling its place in that one energy. The protozoan could not exist and function if it was isolated; which it isn't; it is part of a communal system that works within the bigger structure called evolution. Once we understand this, the mystery of why it survives and its purpose will be finally laid to rest. This will include all life that defies nomination. I will leave it there for the moment and hope it has got some of you thinking. Later I would like to explore more of the 'supernatural' such as 'ghosts' and 'dreams of the future' with the hope of modifying.
Share-
Email

 Copyright © 2016-2019 CE-DEBATE, All Rights Reserved

This site was designed with the
.com
website builder. Create your website today.
Start Now